Author Topic: CH Fighterstick problem (Read 882 times)

toonces3 · « **on:** January 26, 2008, 01:30:50 PM »

Hi all,
I'm sure this has been posted here before- if you know the link or search term please feel free to direct me to it/them if you prefer.

I noticed this a few days ago. My stick is less than a year old. Periodically, not all the time, when I pull the stick back as if to climb, the input is only a fraction of the total input. In other words, full back stick barely provides any back stick input.

Recalibrating 'seems' to work for a little while, but not for long, nor consistently.

Sometimes going full forward and then full back will cause the stick to then recognize the full back input.

This has been very noticable. At first I thought perhaps I had somehow compressed, but I tried it offline in some other sims and it is definately a stick problem.

Thank you very much in advance for your help.
Toonces

wrag · « **Reply #1 on:** January 26, 2008, 02:27:42 PM »

Hmmm..

Are you using the CM manager? Latest version helps with the calibration and how well the controls work. I didn't use it for a long time but after a patch or so ago of AH the controls started acting strange and no matter how much I calibrated they just would not work correctly. Installed and calibrated with CM and no problems since.

Another possible fix is a POWERED usb hub. If you have several controllers, say a stick throttle and rudder peds, plus mouse and keyboard, and maybe something else? Suggest a POWERED usb hub.

toonces3 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 26, 2008, 05:33:27 PM »

wrag,
Thanks for the response.

I am NOT using the CH manager program.

I AM using a powered USB hub.

Thing is, this problem started abruptly a few weeks ago after 6-8 months of perfect performance of the stick. Nothing else has changed recently, so I'm thinking hardware rather than software related. In other words, I haven't installed or modified anything, the plugs are in the same powered hub as before, etc.

I thought perhaps it was an AH2 thing. However, I've experienced the same problem in Wings over Vietnam offline where, for no reason, the back axis of the stick just stops responding, or responds as if there is almost no input. All other axes work fine.

I've heard the thrustmaster sticks have this problem after a while which requires manually going into the stick and fiddling about, however I've never heard of this with CH products, which is why I went with CH over the Thrustmaster gear.

Thanks
Toonces

HomeBoy · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2008, 09:47:53 PM »

Are you fiddling with the "trim wheels?" If they are not perfectly centered in the detents before you calibrate you can get off centered behavior that you describe. Actually, those are not trim wheels at all. They are directly attached to the pots and move the pot mechanically when you move the wheel. They cause way more trouble than they solve. You should NEVER touch them.

Be sure you calibrate in Game Controllers FIRST then again in AH. Pay close attention to the slider bars in the AH calibration and be sure they move full deflection and center well (both in raw and calibrated output) in AH. A lot of people don't realize that you have to do two calibrations (Windows and AH).

One thing I can tell you with almost 100% certainty is it is not the pots. Pots caused a lot of problems with Gameport devices but almost never with USB. The problems people blame on pots these days tend to be power (inadequate power supply, etc.), fiddling with the trim wheels, and improper calibration.

Hope that helps
-hb

toonces3 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 27, 2008, 12:52:50 AM »

I was hoping you'd chime in homeboy.

Ok, good, it's not the pots. That what I was hoping wasn't the problem.

I'll try what you described and get back to you. It's certainly possible that I banged a trim wheel, and I didn't calibrate in windows, just AH.

Be back later.
Toonces

wrag · « **Reply #5 on:** January 27, 2008, 01:08:09 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by toonces3
wrag,
Thanks for the response.

I am NOT using the CH manager program.

I AM using a powered USB hub.

Thing is, this problem started abruptly a few weeks ago after 6-8 months of perfect performance of the stick. Nothing else has changed recently, so I'm thinking hardware rather than software related. In other words, I haven't installed or modified anything, the plugs are in the same powered hub as before, etc.

I thought perhaps it was an AH2 thing. However, I've experienced the same problem in Wings over Vietnam offline where, for no reason, the back axis of the stick just stops responding, or responds as if there is almost no input. All other axes work fine.

I've heard the thrustmaster sticks have this problem after a while which requires manually going into the stick and fiddling about, however I've never heard of this with CH products, which is why I went with CH over the Thrustmaster gear.

Thanks
Toonces

I had SAME problem!!!

I HAD to install CM software, calibrated using CM and no more problems!

Started working even BETTER in AHII after install and using CM Software BUT be sure you download the latest version from CH!

Think it may be a windows update thing of some sort?

BTW did you recently install any new software?

HomeBoy · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2008, 06:05:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by toonces3
...and I didn't calibrate in windows, just AH. ...

There's your problem right there my friend!

Quote

Originally posted by wrag
I had SAME problem!!!

I HAD to install CM software, calibrated using CM and no more problems!

Started working even BETTER in AHII after install and using CM Software BUT be sure you download the latest version from CH!

Think it may be a windows update thing of some sort?

BTW did you recently install any new software?

Howdy wrag,
I'm glad you're "tooting the CM" horn

. I used to really push using CM but so few AH'ers use it that I stopped doing that. I personally think using a CH stick without CM is a bit like buying a fancy Lexus then driving with the windows down rather than using the A/C. [Sorry, starting to rant... checking that]

I'm not going to go as far as you do about CM giving you a better calibration (I do sort of like that rumor so feel free to spread it.

) but I will say that calibrating from Windows (either default drivers or CM drivers) is key to getting the full resolution out of your axes. You should imitate a surgeon doing open heart surgery on the president when you calibrate these things (any sort of controller for that matter).

As for calibrating twice, the skinny on that is this (note this is true for any controller, not just CH):

The calibration you do from Windows (i.e. Game Controllers) is the REAL calibration. Here you are directly interfacing with the device driver for your controller and "introducing" your hardware to your computer. [Ok, a little juvenile I admit...sorry] It is at this level that the full travel of you axes (stick forward/back, left/right, etc) is established. It is also at this level that your software driver learns of the resolution of your stick.

[SLIGHT DETOUR]
CH, like most, uses an 8-bit A/D (analogue to digital) converter. That means (2**8 = 256) that there are 256 individual points of resolution (0-255) available as you move the axis from end point to end point. Some devices have higher resolution (like Leo Bodnar's BU0836 very excellent joystick controller which has a 10-bit A/D converter in it (1024 points of resolution). Then there is the TM Cougar which quite fraudulently boasts 9 bits of resolution even though they use an 8-bit A/D converter. (Truth is, they do some software tricks to "accomplish that" but that's for another day.) IMHO, anything more than 8-bits of resolution is really a waste and nothing more than marketing hype anyway (same thing for hall effect sensors and other such gimmicks... again for another day).
[/SLIGHT DETOUR]

Once you get into Aces High, the calibration facility there only knows what the device driver of your controller tells it. If you did a slip-shod job of calibrating from Windows, AH can only work with slip-shod data. Sort of a garbage-in, garbage-out sort of thing. One thing you might notice about the AH calibration is the data points go from 0 to 65535. You might be saying "Yee-Haw, look at all them data points! I have one heck of a stick don't I?" Well, hold on there cowboy. Truth is, the AH calibration routine is written for a controller with a 16-bit A/D converter (65536 points of resolution) so that they cover about any stick that will ever present itself. [That's just smart programming.] Course I don't know of anybody silly enough to make a stick with 64K of resolution but Hitech is ready when they do.

So, if you look close, you'll see that as you move your stick, the numbers move pretty darn quick. Truth is, if you move your stick from 0 to 65535, you (if you're REALLY bored) would count only 256 actual numbers being used. The rest are skipped (because you can't get more than 8-bits out of an 8-bit A/D converter. Sorry about that TM

).

One of these days I'm going to put stuff like this up on my web site and call it something like "The Myths and Lies About Joysticks" or something like that.

Hope that clears things up a bit (or 8 bits) and sorry for the winded explaino. I was in the mood I guess. I'll go back to listening to Glenn Miller now.

-hb

wrag · « **Reply #7 on:** January 27, 2008, 07:13:15 PM »

HomeBoy...

I noticed that no matter how many times I calibrated in windows and then calibrated in AH I couldn't get FULL axis movement!

I was getting shorted!

My throttle exposed this problem the most!

I couldn't get full throttle!

I tried repeatedly with WINDOWS and AH.

NO GO!

I then decided to install and try the CH Manager.

I then went through all the required steps. (not really that many

)

When I went into AH and calibrated I now had FULL axis throw!

Problem SOLVED!

This all started about 3 months ago. I can't remember if I had just done a windows update prior to it starting or not.

But the fix for me anyway was installing and using the CM Manager software.

I recommend the CM software to all that have CH products!

Works GREAT!

AND if you don't want to use the CM tools for anything but calibration DON'T because you can still use the CH stuff just like you did before and it will work just fine!

HomeBoy · « **Reply #8 on:** January 27, 2008, 07:30:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by wrag
...But the fix for me anyway was installing and using the CM Manager software....

That's good to know wrag. To be honest with you, I don't recall that I have EVER not used CM for anything more than a quick check of some hardware fix.

What you're saying makes a lot of sense as without installing CM (CM installs CH drivers for all their products during the CM install), you are using the generic Microsoft drivers. Apparently, generic really does mean GENERIC in this case and I can certainly see your proving that point.

So, I agree whole heartedly with wrag here. ALWAYS install the CM even if you (and shame on you

) don't use the fantastic programming capabilities of the CM.

-hb

toonces3 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 27, 2008, 09:20:48 PM »

I installed the CM software, but I couldn't figure out how to program the functions to the stick (quickly) and besides, I could just as easily get the stick to do what I want with the AH mapping in the AH program.

I'm sure (aren't I?) that I calibrated in windows at some point, but not any time in recent memory. Now that wrag mentions it, though, windows has downloaded and installed a few updates over the last few months.

What confused me is how this happened so suddenly, and how it's sporadic.

I'll post the results when I get around to re-calibrating and getting some play time in.

Interesting reading Homeboy, I didn't know any of that stuff you posted.

wrag · « **Reply #10 on:** January 28, 2008, 03:32:14 AM »

Then don't program anything!

Reread my above post you don't have to!

When you installed it did it see your controls?

If it did and they don't show up in the CM.

Add all the flight controls you have. Stick, throt, peds whatever make sure they show up in CM.

You did get the LATEST version from CH right?

CALIBRATE using CH software.

HomeBoy · « **Reply #11 on:** January 28, 2008, 07:30:44 AM »

Wrag,
You have nailed this problem.

I'm sure a lot of the problems guys with CH gear complain about is a result of trying to use the default (generic) drivers. It's too bad this thread will die and most will not see it.

Thank you!

toonces3 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 30, 2008, 12:49:07 AM »

Ok, I went into the CH program and recalibrated. Before I calibrated I was able to replicate the problem I was having in game. Basically it appeared that the stick was starting out about a quarter way down the y axis, as if I were already pulling on the stick some, and it had much less than full throw. 'Jiggling' it would reset it to the proper center position.

[edit: it didn't start out like this. After moving the stick around some and allowing it to re-center itself, it came to rest in this partial back position with less than full throw in the y axis.]

After I re-calibrated this happened one other time, but I couldn't get it to happen a second time.

I re-calibrated a second time and the stick seems to be working properly. Before I calibrated the stick and throttle definately weren't perfectly calibrated.

However, having said that, there seemed to be some play in the center position of the stick. I'm not sure what mechanism the stick uses for centering but it almost seems as if there's too much wiggle in the center position and occasionally the spring or whatever is in there will not center the stick exactly on center. It's not much, maybe a point or 3 out of the 256, but it's there sometimes.

Finally, after I rebooted my computer (I played a bit last night after recalibrating before rebooting and the stick worked fine...) the little pop-up came up saying that new hardware was found and I was asked if I wanted to install the new drivers or have windows search for them or whatever. This happened for all 3 devices (stick, throttle, rudder). I canceled out of all 3 and got the error message that the device might not work. I'm sure it still does.

I'm not sure why the computer does this. This happens occasionally with my TrackIR as well where if I unplug and re-plug the thing the computer will sometimes re-load the drivers.

I fear that letting windows install the drivers will replace or override the CH drivers. I don't know enough about this stuff to truly understand what is happening.

Let me know if this doesn't make sense...

The Fugitive · « **Reply #13 on:** January 30, 2008, 08:45:12 AM »

Windows will do that when you unplug and re plug any USB plug. When it goes to reinstall the drivers for your stick and stuff it will use the CH drivers that it will find on your machine. Let it do its thing and you should be ok.

I have a different problem. My stick is a few years old, and I noticed that I have to really press the hat to the left to get the left view. I use to just roll my thumb around and be able to scan, but now it take some pressure to get that view.

I guess I'm asking HomeBoy if this would be a switch problem, where can I get replacements, or would it be an "actuator" problem. Seeing as you've taken a couple of these things apart

should I just order all the hat switches and take it apart and replace them? Or would it be the hat itself (actuator)? Do you have a site with a step by step on how to dis-assemble and re-assemble a stick?

Any help would be great, Thanks

wrag · « **Reply #14 on:** January 30, 2008, 06:20:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by toonces3
Ok, I went into the CH program and recalibrated. Before I calibrated I was able to replicate the problem I was having in game. Basically it appeared that the stick was starting out about a quarter way down the y axis, as if I were already pulling on the stick some, and it had much less than full throw. 'Jiggling' it would reset it to the proper center position.

[edit: it didn't start out like this. After moving the stick around some and allowing it to re-center itself, it came to rest in this partial back position with less than full throw in the y axis.]

After I re-calibrated this happened one other time, but I couldn't get it to happen a second time.

I re-calibrated a second time and the stick seems to be working properly. Before I calibrated the stick and throttle definately weren't perfectly calibrated.

However, having said that, there seemed to be some play in the center position of the stick. I'm not sure what mechanism the stick uses for centering but it almost seems as if there's too much wiggle in the center position and occasionally the spring or whatever is in there will not center the stick exactly on center. It's not much, maybe a point or 3 out of the 256, but it's there sometimes.

Finally, after I rebooted my computer (I played a bit last night after recalibrating before rebooting and the stick worked fine...) the little pop-up came up saying that new hardware was found and I was asked if I wanted to install the new drivers or have windows search for them or whatever. This happened for all 3 devices (stick, throttle, rudder). I canceled out of all 3 and got the error message that the device might not work. I'm sure it still does.

I'm not sure why the computer does this. This happens occasionally with my TrackIR as well where if I unplug and re-plug the thing the computer will sometimes re-load the drivers.

I fear that letting windows install the drivers will replace or override the CH drivers. I don't know enough about this stuff to truly understand what is happening.

Let me know if this doesn't make sense...

I let windows do that!

It will use the CH drivers after the CM stuff is installed. Let it install em!

Should only do this one time provided you don't UNPLUG the CH gear afterwards.

IF it install them every time you boot up then you may have a problem.

Unless you unplug the CH stuff every time you are done with it.

If you unplug the ch gear windows sees it as new hardware and reinstalls!

This can also happen AFTER you install the CM the 1st time! Did it to me and I let windows do it's thing. Think it needs to do it at least one time after the CM prog is installed and the comp is rebooted.

Also did the install AFTER I unplugged and reconnect my gear to a powered USB hub.

Since then NO PROBLEMS and BTW no reinstalls. But I don't, and haven't, unplugged the CH gear since.