Describe the process for flat scissors

[craig666]

I've read the tutorials, studied everything I could find here and through links, but still do not understand the process of performing a flat scissors.

Can someone describe the stick/rudder and throttle inputs to perform this maneuver?

[SlapShot]

There isn't a "specific" set of control inputs to create a "flat scissors".

What you want to do is try to force the attacker, behind you, to go out of "phase" with you from a pursuit standpoint.

I try to start it with a snap-turn (very quick flat turn) to the right, and while looking out the rear, as soon as he tries to follow to the right, you snap turn back to the left, trying to take advantage of his reaction time and getting him out of "phase" with your snap turns.

If you have done it right, when you are snapping left, he will be just starting his snap right. At this point, you are now jocking to cause an overshoot.

So, while your turning left and he is turning right, as you merge, if he passes in front of you, you can maybe get a snapshot, or snap back to the right after the merge (in the middle of the scissor) and then your on his 6.

Depending upon the plane, the control inputs used to try to start the scissors to get him out of phase, could be different.

For example, a 190, which has excellent an excellent roll rate, could create a scissors with simple control inputs much more easier than say an F6F.

[2bighorn]

Originally posted by craig666
I've read the tutorials, studied everything I could find here and through links, but still do not understand the process of performing a flat scissors.

It's just a chain of opposing flat turns in succession.

But as Slapshot already mentioned, maneuvers like flat scissors are performed to get the attacker out of phase and eventually force an overshoot or at least gain some lateral separation, which gives you more room.

Flat scissors should be last ditch effort though, since you'd pass few times in front of the attacker and give him snapshot opportunity. It works the best in fast rolling planes vs slow rolling.

Better way is to perform hard break turn, followed by barrel roll, less chance to get hit that way.

[Mace2004]

The previous posts have it right, flat scissors are a series of flat turns that are out of phase with your opponent but that doesn't really capture the essence of what a flat scissors is about.  Here's an easy way to add to what the others have said and conceptualize this tactic:

First, remember slow races on bikes when you were a kid?  The point was to ride as slow as possible so you reach the "finish" line last.  Doing this, you balance your bike and usually ending up riding in a series of S's.  You're increasing the distance you're riding by doing the S's and decreasing your travel toward the finish line...think of your approach to the finish line as "down range travel".  Your opponent doesn't do S's (or can't balance well, or his S's are too small) and he gets out in front of you.  That's a flat scissors.

Your goal is to reduce your down range travel so he flys out in front.  Once he's out in front you are now offensive on him and he has to worry about letting you get a shot.  

There are both fast and slow scissors but in both you want your down range travel to be less than your opponent's.  High speed scissors are not difficult, just a series of (usually) nose-high hard turns but low-speed scissors are a different animal and require more skill because you're riding on the edge of stall.

If this is the situation you're in you want to get your nose up, go full power (+ WEP) and drop your flaps so you can maintain the nose-high position.  Use mostly rudder with a bit of aileron to keep your aircraft in balance during turns as you're riding the edge of stall and don't want to depart (stall).  Try to fly "inside" your opponent's turn, to a point behind him rather than right at him.  I know this one is tough to visualize, just keep in mind where the "finish line" is and keep your opponent between it and you.

A few things to remember.  You are better off driving the fight.  In other words, start your turns before he starts his.  Make him react to your turns rather than waiting until he does something and react to him.  Dont' try to scissors too long with an airplane with significant turn superiority or better low speed handling.  Don't stay in a scissors too long...you will get picked.  To exist a scissors wait until you pass your opponent and, as he heads away roll away from the fight, drop your nose and raise your flaps to accelerate and get separation.  

The most important motto or a scissors is: he who gets slowest quickest wins.

[uberslet]

mace you said "he who is slowest wins", i know this is an exception, but lets say i am in a hog, and my opponent in a spit 16, if i get slower faster, he would just have to level out and out accelerate me and be gone ftm, no?

[goober69]

sounds like if your behind him drop flaps and all that unless he gets too slow he could just go to auto climb and out climb you to get position.

hopefuly your close enough to hit him when he levels out or goes to climb, cause soon he will have e to come back and kill you. hope im right.

trick is if your behind to feahter the throttle go slightly nose up and just slow down enough so you dont overshoot and dont slow down so much that you give him room to escape you.

.50's have a long reach but i personaly have dificulty hitting anything outside 400 unless they are flying level or trying to climb away from me.

if your a good shot you should get the kill there and/or disable an elevator or alieron which makes the fight much easier.

probably if your not to slow and someone goes to flat scisors you should just pull up and roll over and watch them kind of like a high yo yo.

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by uberslet
mace you said "he who is slowest wins", i know this is an exception, but lets say i am in a hog, and my opponent in a spit 16, if i get slower faster, he would just have to level out and out accelerate me and be gone ftm, no?

Well, that's a good question.  First, slowest is a relative term.  "Slowest" may not mean 100mph, it could be 325 if your opponent is 350.  You don't need (or want) to cut your engine and drop your gear to decel to 100 if he's 350, you just want to be a little slower than he is.  If you've reversed into him starting a scissors, and he just tries to run you'll probably get some good shots off or you can slice away and extend out his six o'clockto increase separation and redefine the fight.  If you're both fast, you both have e and e=options.

The real, down and dirty slow scissors is a true knife-fight in a phone booth with both of you riding on the edge of stall and close enough that you can read the other guy's instruments as you pass.  This is the thing about a knife fight...you both may be "trapped" in the fight as there is no easy way out for either airplane.  Neither of you want to turn your six to the other and attempt to "motor away" because no airplane in AH has that much of an acceleration advantage.  This is why you either get him out in front (i.e., get slowest fastest) and kill him or, if you're getting beat in the scissors set up your best chance for an escape (i.e., wait until you're passing 180 out, dump the nose and run).  Even doing this you may only be able to gain a bit of separation but it may be a better (i.e., only) option if your opponent is winning the "down-range" fight.

[uberslet]

thanks guys (<-uber noob that been playin for almost 1.5 yrs)

[sax]

At some point during the scissors if you see him struggling to keep with
you , pull up at about 60 degrees and watch if he starts to go under ,
at that point roll back in hopefully either on his ded 6 or close enough for a wing shot .

[goober69]

was my explaination any good? lol

is the yo yo a good option there?
at higher speeds i mean.

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by goober69
was my explaination any good? lol

is the yo yo a good option there?
at higher speeds i mean.

Yeah Goober, you've got it right.  As you slow down, convert that excess e into altitude.  It's great to be behind your opponent, it's even better to behind and ABOVE him.  Even if you still don't have enough separation to spit-s on him he's very solidly trapped as any attempt to escape by him means you just point at him and convert your excess e to closure and a kill.  On the other hand, if you're above him and you need to disengage (out of ammo, another bandit entering the fight) then it's much easier to convert that extra e to separation and a successful bugout.

To avoid the other things you were talking about (i.e., climbing away, regaining e, etc.) the trick is to keep the pressure on him.  Stay close enough that his options are limited.  If he lowers his nose for speed, you're right there on him before he can get away.

[mtnman]

This also goes to show a few other things. (as goober hinted...)

1- For every move (maneuver), there's at least one way to counter it.  There is no move that will work every time.  There are no "uber" moves.

2- You need to learn to understand "when" a move is likely to work to your best advantage, and when it actually aids your attacker.

3- A move needs to be done correctly, at the correct time for it to have any hope.  If your opponent counters it, you need to STOP the move, and adjust.  Even if he doesn't counter it, you'll probably want to shift into a different maneuver to give you the shot.

Flat scissors are NOT a good option when your attacker has a high rate of closure (is much faster than you).  As you perform a flat scissors you'll end up slowing down quite a bit.  A fast attacker will just go up (yo-yo, or other) and get into a position to drop back onto you for a shot.  You'll be in a WORSE position than you started in.  You'll be under the attacker, and slower than you started.  You're actually helping your attacker kill you.

Against a fast attacker you need to dodge his shot while burning as little E as possible, while at the same time setting up an opportunity to equalize E states to a point you can get a shot yourself.

Look at the thread about overshoots for a description.

For a flat scissors to work correctly the attacker needs to have a LOW rate of closure (catching you, but fairly slowly).  You also need to convince him to scissor with you.  If he's not catching you, you don't need to scissor.

Even at a low rate of closure, if you start with a hard break turn you'll scrub a bunch of E and give him the option of going up like the first example.  You're effectively slamming on the brakes.  If he does follow you into the scissors, he'll probably zoom through and be to fast for you to catch him when he gets out front.  He'll be to fast to stay with you in the scissors anyway.  He can extend away, or go up and loop over onto you.

So don't start with a hard break, unless it's your only option.  Start with a nice "medium" "no black-out" break to the right.  As Slapshot mentioned, you need to be watching your opponent out of your high six view.  If he follows, reverse your break the opposite direction as soon as he begins his turn.  Still watching him, reverse again as soon as he tries to follow.  If this is working, he WON'T be in your high six view anymore.  He'll be in your up view, and then eventually in your up-forward view, and then in your gun sight.  If not, he's following you and you need to sharpen your turns a tad, and start reversing earlier.  

The object here is to cause him to overshoot WITHOUT slowing down much yourself.  Think geometry, NOT brakes.  You get him to overshoot by flying a longer path between point A and point B measured out in a straight line on the ground, while he flies the shorter, straighter path.  If you time your reversals correctly you will fly a more "squashed" S shape (like if you put a weight on top of the S and smooshed it down 1/2 way.  He's reacting to your reversals and has less time between reversals, so his S shape isn't squashed, it's "stretched" closer to straight.  Like if you tied a thread to the top and bottom of the S and pulled up with one hand and down with the other to stretch it vertically.  I generally have my gun sight drawing a figure 8 along the horizon while in scissors.  I roll left, and let my nose come down a few degrees to KEEP my speed, before rolling back right, and up a bit before rolling all the way right and letting my nose drop a bit again for speed.  Not a true "flat" path.  This also helps avoid his shots as you cross in front of him on your reversals.  If he drops his nose to take shots at you, he'll actually make it easier for you to get behind him (hopefully he misses)(shall I mention here that most folks miss 97% of the time?) because instead of a reversal I'll morph it into a larger barrel roll and drop right onto his six.  He's nose down, I'm nose up, how can he follow?

The ideal result here is that he'll end up in front of you WITHOUT a huge speed advantage, putting you on his six with a nice shot opportunity.  He won't have enough extra speed to zoom back up, and if he does you'll be able to follow him, cutting the corner a bit to catch and kill him.  Often, as he realizes he's squirting out in front he'll try to tighten his turns, and slow down in the process right in front of you!  What could be better?

IT IS CRITICAL that you watch your opponent!  ALL THE TIME!!  It's OK to lose sight of him briefly as he goes behind a wing, etc, but you need to know what he's doing, and what he's capable of ALL THE TIME.

If you don't, you'll miss when he decides to quite flying this maneuver he won't win, and changes his plan.  If he does that, you need to STOP the scissors.  NOT after 1-3 more reversals before you glance back and have no idea where he is.  You'll miss opportunities to easily acquire his six as he decides to leave the scissors, or take advantage of him momentarily stalling, etc.  At the very least, if he slows down too much pulling too hard on his turns, you'll actually have an E advantage.  In this case you need to extend at the right time (when he's going the other way).  If you're in front of him, and faster than him, trying to get him to overshoot doesn't make a lot of sense...  Many think that a scissors is a race to slow down, so this scenario is not abnormal.  I love it when my opponent purposely slows way down, hehe!  The scissors IS NOT an elaborate way to slow down in a fight!

MtnMan

[BluKitty]

What I would add...  

I put ACM into two categories.  

Positive energy maneuvers(PE).
Negative energy maneuvers(NE).

A PE maneuver is where you aim to have more energy than your opponent, or be at a point before them;  A maneuver such as a spiral climb hammerhead.

Scissors are a NE maneuver, where you aim to lose more energy, or be at a point after your opponent.

You need to understand which type a maneuver you are attempting, and stick with the decision.  Switching between PE and NE maneuvers is not recommended without a bit of extending/separation... unless you really know what your are doing, in which case you wouldn't be asking

My point is, you have to be clear and analyze what you are trying to do from a basic level.  Many planes are more suited to a 'half-pipe' type of scissors, as opposed to a fully flat scissors.  Planes with more aileron authority are more suited to a pure flat scissors, a plane with greater rudder authority, but less aileron authority would be better suited to the half-pipe method.  

Note that rudder and aileron authority will change for a given plane at different speeds.  The P-38L for instance would be better at flat scissors at high speed, but at low speed...half-pipe scissors would be better.

In the end you must always react to your situation, and not have 'canned' answers.  Stick inputs should be second nature once you decide what to do.  If you are planning certain inputs expecting a certain situation, this is not a good mind-set IMHO. You need to decide in the moment weather a NE or PE maneuver is called for, then what type of maneuver, how hard to you push it, how much energy do you try to keep/lose?

All flat scissors are is turning left and right flat.  The degree to which you do it, and what the angles are, is dynamic however; This is why I wrote what I did above.  If you know what scissors are, you know the control inputs...noone can tell you what the exact inputs are for a given plane in a given situation will be... it's too dynamic.

[goober69]

i dunno what happened the other night but i was in a tail chase.

i was flying a spit 16 against a spit 14 and a spit 9 both were on my six.
the 9 was back about 1k with medium to no closure.
i was about 350-400 mph.
the 14 was maybe 1k above the 9 and closing at maybe 50-60 mph more than me.
was confusing because their icons started to blend together.
when the spit 14 got to about 600 out closing for the shot.
i said to myself i gota do something so i kicked full oposite rudder.
rolled 360 left and pulled about 3 g's right and then rolled back over and pulled about 4g's left. (i wasn't blacking out.) it wasnt a completely flat scisors but it was enough to make him depart at high speed and hit the deck.
one plane down.
while im in the left turn i see the 9 closing for his shot. just as he gets in range i back out of my turn roll upright and go vert. as he pases through my tail view i roll back over on him.
from there it was a tail chase and i eventualy killed him when he tried to flat scisor on me.

i guess i got kind of lucky a smarter 14 piilot would have pulled up instead of trying to follow me.
i had been fighting both of them over their base for a while when another plane showed up and i had to bug out after killing it and getting below them.
didnt get to land though cause i was bingo fuel.

good thread here guys

[rauchen]

If the pilot of the faster plane is good he'll know when to try to run away on you.  But if you're both in a flat scissor you're going to get a shot on him at some point if you don't lose sight.

I managed to get on a C205 in my F4U-1a and knew with flaps and wep that I could hang with him. Into the scissors he went, I started cranking flaps, working the throttle. The sneaky bastage - every time I pullled lead to take a shot on him he dropped his nose and accelerated away when I couldn't see him. After noticing he was getting away I leveled out and was figuring I'd get one good shot at him at about440 -600 yds. Then I got picked by a 450mph LA-7.  

As I watched the film later I discovered:
1. The C205 was Herb - so i was out of my league to start with.
2. I shoulda done a lag turn until I could REALLY nail him.
3. It pays to keep the nme in sight!  I'm gonna try that trick myself - rolling away when the nme loses you under the nose is awesome.  

Don't know how not to get picked yet, but I'm working on that, too.