zoom climb

[df54]

for every move there is a counter move. How do you counter a zoom climb,

[Lusche]

I'm afraid you will have to be a bit more specific with your question.

[WMLute]

Originally posted by df54
for every move there is a counter move. How do you counter a zoom climb,

don't follow 'em up w/o enough E to catch 'em.

keep your E.

I tend to extend in the opposite (ish) dir. of their zoom in a slight climb trying to keep up my E.

IF they are any good, they will abort the zoom and stay on me.

IF they are noobs, they keep the zoom going to it's apex, and allow me to get seperation and build some alt/e.

The ones to watch are the ones that react when you don't fall for the rope attempt.  If they allow more than 2-3k seperation you are in for an easy fight.

Generally ending with them running like heck after they blow their alt/e.

[BaldEagl]

Since Lute took the perspective of them being on your 12, I'll take the perspective of them being on your six (which is what first came to my mind when I read your post).

You need to bleed their E before that climb to take the option away from them.  Most of the great zoom-climbers aren't that great in sustained climbs, so, if you have a good sustained climber and want to use the verticle to your advantage, you need to get the zoom climber near your own E state before you begin the climb.  You can do this by turning, scissoring or any of a number of other ways.

If you're already in a climb and you notice a zoom-climber coming up your six, the same principle applies.  You need to bleed some E from him.  I ran into this situation last night.  I was in a 109G-14 with a zooming F6F closing on my six.  At about D-800 I began a lazy spiraling climb, tighning it as he drew nearer.  By D-400 he had his nose straight up, couldn't control it for the shot and had to break off.  I didn't follow until too late because I was alone against ~10 F6F's but it would have/should have been a classic rope.  This is only one, of course, of several methods you might be able to use depending on the specific situation.

[Murdr]

In addition to what Lute said, here is another possible solution.  The question is "If  they zoom to stall, or even near stall, can I get to a position above their decent arc?"  If you can zoom above their decent arc, you are in a position safe from their guns.



Surprisingly, even if you can only get above their decent arc by a slim magin, if your timing is good, it is still effective.



So all you are doing is going to a position where they cannot put their nose on you.  You do however need to have the ability to predict what their best flight path would look like, and cross above it ahead of their guns.  The objective is that it is almost an automatic overshoot setup.  You are slowing in a zoom near your best possible altitude, while they are acclelerating in a dive trying to recover level flight.  It may or may not give you a shot at them, but this scenario can be repeated over until one of you gets guns.

[df54]

thanks guys. Perhaps i wasnt specific enough. Im in pursuit on dead six of a stang or hellcat in a yak or la5n,suddenly nme zooms like a jet if i dont have enough e to follow what should i do to counter.

[goober69]

as has been said if im in a better turner and cant follow em up as soon as they go up id go slight nose high and get some seperation,
if/ when they catch u again you can go for overshoot moves like barrel roll defence. hopefuly youve bled their e enough so you can follow the zoom or if they try to turn with you and get slow then u got em.

trick is knowing when to do what. you will probably follow up when you shouldnt a lot of times.
often if im in a plane i know i can out turn my eneme in i will fake like im following for the shot then flap my wings over try to get them to come back down on me. make a turn so they over shoot going below you turn your 3-9 onto them and you have either killed most of their e or you have a kill shot when they try to zoom back up.

[BaldEagl]

Speaking for myself, if I don't have the E to follow the zoom climb (or find out along the way that I don't), I'll nose down to gain E and seperation.  I ultimately want the attacker to follow me, hoping to bleed his E.  As he closes I'll reverse on him and, if he zooms again we repeat until our E-states have equalized.

There's two things to watch for when doing this.  If the attacker follows his climb through a loop, you'll gain the greatest seperation and he'll likely have to level somewhat in pursuit after his dive.  This is the best case.  If the attacker rolls at the top of his climb then pulls through, he'll be coming back down almost on top of you (his counter-move to your attempt to gain seperation) and your evasives will be put to the test.

The key, as always, is to try to equalize E states and that starts with you gaining E and him losing E.

[Hap]

Murdr, always enjoy your posts.