This is what happens when you defend your home here.

[Rich46yo]

Responding to a call like this I would be completely on the homeowners side. Even if it meant putting an arm around his shoulder and taking a little walk with him.

                    Force everyone lo learn karate? Hahahahahah, that must be a joke. What if the bad guy brings a gun to a karate fight? Whoya going to call? Jet Li ?

                    "Most" people would be none to keen to kill an intruder. They may say they would be on an internet forum but killing someone isnt that easy for God fearing people. I believe almost all homeowners who do such things are sincerely in fear of their lives, and the lives of their familys.

                      Sorry but the Law reads that use of deadly force is use of deadly force. It dont matter if you try winging the BG or shooting the gun out of his hand. Its still "use of deadly force", and even worse, now there may be a bullet richocheting to kill your neighbors kid sleeping in his bed next door.

                     And all your pretty little groups you shoot at the range might not mean much in a fluid gunfight where the BG aint posing for you to shoot in the 10 ring. At no time ever "shoot to wound". If you have enough reason to shoot at the BG then you better have enough reason to kill him. You either have enough reason to use deadly force or you dont.

                    Gee Laz, you cop expert, does it take all of us 20 rounds to hit someone or only 157,789 of us? I know coppers that can make me look bad in a combat shoot. And since I can make "you" look bad exactly where does that leave you?

[lazs2]

agree with rich46 completely on this.   well said.

lazs

[Rich46yo]

Originally posted by lazs2
agree with rich46 completely on this.   well said.

lazs

Good, read it again.

[REP0MAN]

Originally posted by lazs2
repoman..  I think we agree.   I see nothing wrong with calling the cops but.. only after I have secured a means of stopping the intruder.  

I agree that in a non tense situation.. if you have icewater for blood.. you could call the cops and drop the phone if things escalated.   I believe that in the back of the guys mind.. he probly thought it wouldn't get that far anyway.

very few people even believe it is happening to them.. even while it is happening.. they think it will all end somehow..  

like twenty fo.. for instance.. he would be weeping and pleading as he was being stomped to death while trying to show the guy his karate trophy that he won his pink belt with in the non contact dance contest at his local dooooo jooooe.

lazs

Yep! I know that I would be just like them too; not believing it is happening to me. I don't even know if I could actually go get the gun without trying to physically subdue an intruder. I don't know if my reaction would be to run away from the imminent threat to even get a gun. As we've said, so many factors, so many different situations.

Originally posted by lasersailor184
But there is.  By you being a little pansy waffler you are giving credence to those who wish to take away guns and especially those who wish to take away the right to defend yourself.

You've hit the nail on the head (with the exception of the unwarranted insult). I posted the right to defend your property, not yourself (which means your life). When you can see that there is a difference, we'll chat.

Either it is alright to KILL someone trying to forcibly trying to enter your house to do whatever he wants, or it isn't.  There is no middle ground.  There is no weighing the specific circumstances.  You either blow his ****ing head off, or you wait and pray that the cops are nearby and able to show up in time.

If he is trying to break into your house and there is no imminent physical danger to you or your family; you'd better prey the cops have padded handcuffs. You wrists are gonna be sore.
If you and your loved ones are behind that door, with no other place to go, I agree wholeheartedly; empty the clip in the bastage.

But let me tell you, ask any victim.  That 4 - 30 minutes waiting for a cop is a LONG time.

I don't have to ask any victim, I WAS that cop for many years. I not only know and completely understand what a victim is going through while waiting for police to arrive. I can go even further; I know what it's like trying to get to that victim. Knowing they could be in the fight of their life. The thought in your head that an innocent citizen may be breathing his last breathe because it took you an extra 15 seconds to get in the car from your last call. Don't think that I don't understand. Don't think that every cop in America doesn't understand.

[john9001]

don't break into a house down here in Florida, the people are allowed to shoot criminals in Florida.

Florida, the unfriendly to criminals state.

[lazs2]

rich46..  I agree with you..  I don't know but I think you might be able to beat me in a game of combat shoot.   unless of course..  there was no course and you had to use whatever gun was at hand.  I never was all that good at games.   get bored.

So yeah.. we still agree.   Now if you want to show me the real stats on what you "combat" shooters do in a real gunfight.. if it isn't like 7-20 rounds per hit.. then maybe I am wrong.

lazs

[Rich46yo]

Originally posted by lazs2
rich46..  I agree with you..  I don't know but I think you might be able to beat me in a game of combat shoot.   unless of course..  there was no course and you had to use whatever gun was at hand.  I never was all that good at games.   get bored.

So yeah.. we still agree.   Now if you want to show me the real stats on what you "combat" shooters do in a real gunfight.. if it isn't like 7-20 rounds per hit.. then maybe I am wrong.

lazs

                 The problem comes when you group entire groups together and then make blanket statements. Its bad policy all around.

                 And while Ive always been a believer in practicing on a range, and ANY kind is better then none, the truth is shooting on a range has very little in common with actual gunfights. Even guys who are really good shots on a range can whiff in an actual shootout.

               A lot of different things can happen. They can happen to me and they can happen to you. And having actually been in such incidents I can tell you they leave you feeling more humble then you felt before.

[Thruster]

I'd bet that at one time the idea of opposing an intruder with deadly force was a  universally condoned practice. Unfortunately the real world stepped in and the justification became less cut and dried. I only personally know of 3 "home invasions" that occurred to people close to me. None warranted, in my mind, the use of deadly force. Nor were they definitive of the scenarios we have used to make our collective statements.

I get the impression that for the overwhelming majority incidents where the "invader" in fact had malevolent ambitions, the "invadee" did something to bring them there. I know it did in two of my references, in which there was no apparent malice to persons or property but in the case of one somebody lost their life.

As much as I dislike using fiction as an example of real life, it sometimes can help to make an example everyone can grasp. I refer to the last scene in the old film "Sleeping With the Enemy" where the heroin has a subdued and as I recall immobilized ex on the floor and lets him watch her call the police to report that she just killed an intruder.

In the movies grim irony is all well and good, in real life it loses a little luster. In most of the country it's accepted that one may shoot an intruder as soon as they breach the threshold but due to our collective tendency to embellish the truth, it's important to exercise a bit of diligence before we commend the "victim".

Far be it for me to advocate passivity in the case of a person entering another's home uninvited with ill intent, I just don't know how many times it really happens.

[Rich46yo]

It does happen. The first homicide I handled as a rookie was of a 79yo grandmother whose apartment was invaded by a burglar. The guy beat her head in with a telephone until she was unrecognizable as a human being and then for good measure strangled her with the phone cord. We figured it had to be a junkie who was sick for the needle cause her underpants werent down around her ankles. She'd been dead for two days before the neighbor called in a "bad smell".

                          A guy I worked for once had 2 BGs come in in the middle of the night. They killed him with baseball bats, thought they killed his 9yo kid, and then raped his wife before beating her to death. The neighbors called the police when they saw the kid walking around in his underwear bloody from head to toe. We found their car in a housing project parking lot and shortly after arrested the two. They were 2 of the many cold blooded killers that were saved from the needle after our ex-Governor suspended the death penalty.

                           As far as I know we never pinched anyone for the 79yo grandma. I hope everyone here is prepared to protect themselves and their families. Because 2 to 5 mins IS a long time and things like this really DO happen.

 

Far be it for me to advocate passivity in the case of a person entering another's home uninvited with ill intent, I just don't know how many times it really happens.

[Thruster]

Everyone knows these things happen, just ask Sharon Tate. That's not the point I was making.

It's about numbers, and the situational issues. About seeing the forest through the trees.

Fact is, the old lady's case is moot. Too many what if's? The second example I won't even get into. The question is, considering all of the stupid things people do, should we give 'em a free pass because they fit a profile?

Or more simply put: Is it ok to kill someone just because of where they stand and do we assume that all "victims" tell the truth?

[Iron_Cross]

Originally posted by Thruster
Far be it for me to advocate passivity in the case of a person entering another's home uninvited with ill intent, I just don't know how many times it really happens.

So we should sit down with the intruder, have some tea, and discuss what his intentions are?  

"Oh, your just here to rob the place then?"

"Yes sir.  Sorry about this, I just want your valuables.  Don't want to harm you."

"Well,  I'll just pop over to the bedroom, and bar the door.  Oh, and do be quick, I shall ring the police.  I wouldn't want you to get caught."

"If you would sir, mind throwing out your wallet, before you close the bedroom door.  It would help me, speed things along, greatly."

As for your "other" scenario Thruster, Hollywood bull**** would not make it past police scrutiny.  All shootings get investigated, and both shooter and shoot are looked at.  If things don't tally the way they should, and there are a lot of variables that could make investigators think of murder(it is what they usually start out thinking in the first place), rather than some poor bloke picking the wrong house to mess with.  Hollywood fantasies are not a part of the real world, except as entertainment on screen.  A tiny, fraction of a percent, of home invasions come anywhere near the scenario you provide.  For that tiny fraction of a percent, the police usually figure out, rather quickly, that the "victim" really isn't.

If a person enters my house, uninvited, they will be faced with a gun, and told to leave.  If they do not, or advance on me, I will assume their intentions are hostile and react to preserve my life and the lives of my family.  Even if they don't speak the same language, a gun in the face is a universal sign for GTFO.

[Rich46yo]

Originally posted by Thruster
Everyone knows these things happen, just ask Sharon Tate. That's not the point I was making.

It's about numbers, and the situational issues. About seeing the forest through the trees.

Fact is, the old lady's case is moot. Too many what if's? The second example I won't even get into. The question is, considering all of the stupid things people do, should we give 'em a free pass because they fit a profile?

Or more simply put: Is it ok to kill someone just because of where they stand and do we assume that all "victims" tell the truth?

                    What does that mean exactly?

                    Exactly "what ifs" are we talking about when an intruder breaks into the house of an old lady, beats and strangles her to death? WTF are you talking about?

                    I could name hundreds of examples. The rapes alone are in the dozens that I handled.

[Shuffler]

I won't ask the intruder to fill out a questionaire. Anyone breaking into my home will be shot.

[Dos Equis]

I prefer to use a flamethrower against soft targets.

[john9001]

Originally posted by Dos Equis
I prefer to use a flamethrower against soft targets.

what about collateral damage to your house?