Russian bombers 'buzzed' US aircraft carrier

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Widewing
So far, you offer nothing to support your ridiculous claim. This is simply because you cannot do so. However, don't let that stop you from blathering away. We're all interested in how far you'll dig that hole you're in.

Do I HAVE to prove anything?!

http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/PAPERS/HISTORY/USA_SPY.HTM

"В 14 часов 17 минут была обнаружена группа неизвестных самолетов южнее мыса Гамова. В 14 часов 38 минут эта группа самолетов начала движение курсом на север в сторону нашей территории.

В 14 часов 48 минут командир авиазвена капитан Беляков доложил с воздуха, что два самолета заходят в хвост и что вступает с ними в бой. После этого связь с истребителями прекратилась.

Как установлено, воздушный бой произошел на высоте 6 тыс. метров над морем в 30-35 км от побережья мыса Гамова и в 10-15 км от нашей морской границы.

Из четырех истребителей на аэродром возвратился один, который во время боя оторвался от своих самолетов. Другой вследствие отказа двигателя упал в море в районе мыса Льва и в воздушном бою не участвовал. Летчик погиб. Остальные два самолета предположительно сбиты американцами"

Quoted according to Izvestia, Jan 5 1994. It's a quote from a Soviet Navy report.

Soviet planes were attacked 10min after a take-off, 30min after US planes were spotted by Soviet locators. The flight took place at 6km alt and 10-15km from Soviet sea border.

Oriskani's Panthers were severely punched when flying over Korea, so I can easily doubt your photo.

Now I think I should ask specialists at Russians Mil-History Forum. There should be more documents available.

BTW, Izvestia made a great investigation on KAL-007 back in early 90s.

[Widewing]

According to Soviet side MiGs took off to intercept targets approaching Soviet airspace, the fight began with US planes getting on MiGs 6, then the radio communications were lost. One MiG ditched due to an engine failure and didn't participate in a fight, so Red side was outnumbered, one MiG returned to base, two were shot down by Americans. Some Russian-language web-sites say the carrier was called Princeton, not Oriskani.

Then the Russian websites are obviously incorrect. Where's your documentation? Don't bother making excuses, there isn't any. Why? Because the Soviets were not in the habit of announcing debacles like this one. Even if they documented such a one-sided beating, you must realize that the report would not reflect the facts... Can you say Gulag?

After studying American records from Korean war - I think I'll believe Red side. And Soviet pilots were not allowed to use weapons in international airspace.

Well, of course you would! No one expected otherwise.

Here's the dilemma for Soviet revisionists: Seven MiG-15s, a fighter vastly superior to the F9F (a first generation jet fighter), attack two F9Fs while having a huge altitude advantage.

Two week-end warrior reservists, on their first ever combat deployment, and never having engaged in air combat prior; beat the living daylights out of the MiGs. Sending two into the drink, and two more limping home shot to pieces (only the Soviets know if they did get home).

Would you be in a hurry to report this to Stalin?

Let's touch on another point. The after action reports, which detail the engagement is on a US Navy website. It isn't on some public forum or some non-government site. The documents are authentic.

So, if you post something here that resembles a document, you had better have serious bona fides. IE: If it's not a primary source document from a government source (verifiable) it could easily be a forgery. It wouldn't be the first time someone cooked up a document to support a nonsensical argument. Credibility counts.. Verstehen?

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Boroda


Still no comments on Sukhaya Rechka airfield attack.

What comments would you like? A navigation blunder and an unfortunate strafing of a Soviet airfield. The US admitted the error, apologized and offered to pay for any damage. What's the issue here?

From this website:

"On Sunday, 8 October 1950, First Lieutenant Ray Carter took an afternoon flight of two up the east coast to the very northeast corner of North Korea ...where Korea, Manchuria and Russia join borders. Finding a multitude of targets on the roads near Kyongwon, on the Korean side, he wasn't aware when he crossed the border with Russia, heading northeast ...into forbidden territory. Soviet territory!

Continuing through the sparse valleys of the coastal range, he led his flight onto an open plain and discovered a 'secret airfield' with dozens of airplanes on the parking apron. However, because he was getting low on fuel, and the anti-aircraft fire was heavier than what Ray had been used to, he led just one wild strafing pass down the long line of 'enemy' aircraft, then turned out to sea and followed the winding coastline back to Pusan, arriving long after dark.

Two hours before Ray's flight reached Pusan's K-9 base, we had been alerted to a problem by a Top Secret message from Far East Air Force Headquarters. The steaming message came straight from General MacArthur, with emphasis added by Gen. Stratemeyer the Far East Air Force Commander:

'Who in the bloody hell's been shooting up the Russian airplanes on the very outskirts of Vladivostok?!'

That 'secret airfield' they'd strafed was at Sukhaya Rechka ...sixty miles inside Soviet Siberia, and the Hotlines from Moscow to Washington were buzzing with indignation.

Washington was very apologetic, assuring the Soviets that it was a simple and understandable navigation error on the part of our pilots, and that they would be severely disciplined. Our government even offered to pay the Russians monetary damages for the loss of their equipment destroyed in the raid. They finally allowed the matter to drop, and a possible provocation of World War Three was allowed to pass almost unnoticed.

Ray Carter felt terrible about attracting so much adverse high-level attention to the Squadron. I consoled him by telling him that he was getting his wrist slapped for his error in navigation ...he was grounded for a week,  sent to Tokyo for high echelon interrogation, then placed on R & R Leave until things cooled down."

My regards,

Widewing

[Boroda]

Again: 4 MiGs _attacked_ by US planes. One returned to base. Look, I admit it.

I'll ask this question at Russian Military-Historical Forum, hope I'll get answers with archive documents, with proper fund and folder numbers.

In fact Americans engaged only three MiGs, not seven, and Americans began to move towards Soviet airspace before Soviet fighters took off for interception.

I have to admit that I don't remember if Soviet planes returned fire or not, they probably could, after being attacked (I mean after being shot at), but only as self-defense. Reading memoirs of many Soviet pilots who flew at Far East in 1950s-60s - they had to get the permission to open fire at American violators in Soviet airspace through an extremely long chain of command, so people like Leonid Mekhanikov wrote that they got gnnery solutions on RB-47 and never got a permission to open fire before an invader left Soviet airspace.

Invader(s) over Sakhalin in Sept 1983 was(were) shot down only because of voluntary decision of local VVS commander, gen. Kornukov, later - a VVS RF Supreme Commander, the situation just became too tense.

You can also look at this site: http://rescue007.org/ Loonies, but there is a grain of truth everywhere.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Boroda
Daaaamn.

According to Soviet side MiGs took off to intercept targets approaching Soviet airspace, the fight began with US planes getting on MiGs 6, then the radio communications were lost. One MiG ditched due to an engine failure and didn't participate in a fight, so Red side was outnumbered, one MiG returned to base, two were shot down by Americans. Some Russian-language web-sites say the carrier was called Princeton, not Oriskani.

After studying American records from Korean war - I think I'll believe Red side. And Soviet pilots were not allowed to use weapons in international airspace.

Still no comments on Sukhaya Rechka airfield attack.

You ever stop to think that just maybe the Red sides story is inaccurate? I'm 100% positive that my government doesn't always tell us the whole truth. I'm also 100% positive that no government in history has told it's people the whole truth, including the USSR.

The attack on the airfield? Give it a rest Boroda. The attack was carried out by 2 F-80 Shooting Stars, 2 whole planes strafed an airfield. The official explanation was that it was a navigational error on the part of the pilots. The commander was relieved from duty, pilots were disciplined and the US offered to pay damages. If you are looking for an apology for the attack, it won't be coming from me. I'm not going to apologize for an incident that happened before I was born.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Boroda


You can also look at this site: http://rescue007.org/ Loonies, but there is a grain of truth everywhere.

Let's not try to change the subject... The tragic Korean 747 shoot down has nothing to do with the events of 1952. Soviet commanders made a terrible mistake in judgment, Just like Captain Rogers of the USS Vincennes made a terrible error in judgment, shooting two Standard missiles at that Iranian Airbus.

These things happened and everyone regrets the unnecessary and tragic deaths that resulted. Sometimes officers believed to be competent turn out to be otherwise. However, this is often found out after they blunder in a way beyond belief. Every nation's military has its fair share of these people, unfortunately.

The difference lies in how governments deal with it. A free press made sure that the US played its cards above the table. Not the case with the Soviets. It took a major embarrassment in the UN to get the Soviets to admit to the mistake.

But, let's not waste rhetoric on those issues. Lets, instead, stick to the topic.

Show us some trustworthy documentation that supports your ever evolving argument.

My regards,

Widewing

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Boroda
ave to admit that I don't remember if Soviet planes returned fire or not, they probably could, after being attacked (I mean after being shot at), but only as self-defense. Reading memoirs of many Soviet pilots who flew at Far East in 1950s-60s - they had to get the permission to open fire at American violators in Soviet airspace through an extremely long chain of command, so people like Leonid Mekhanikov wrote that they got gnnery solutions on RB-47 and never got a permission to open fire before an invader left Soviet airspace.

Give it a rest boroda, everyone knows the USSR had pilots flying migs for NK, all the stuff's been declassified. So getting permission to fire is just some fantasy bouncing around your skull.

Where's nielson, I'm sure he has some comments about soviet pilots shooting down catalina's and such in int'l airspace in that era. Oops here we go:

Catalina affair
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
 
A Swedish DC-3, similar to the one shot down by the Soviets in 1952
A Swedish Catalina, similar to the one shot down by the Soviets in 1952 while searching for the missing DC-3The Catalina affair was an incident on June 13, 1952, when a Swedish military DC-3 flying over the Baltic Sea carrying out signals intelligence gathering operations for the Swedish National Defence Radio Establishment, disappeared east of the Isle of Gotland. Three days later, two Swedish military Catalina flying boats searched for the DC-3 north of Estonia. One of the planes was shot down by Soviet warplanes but the crew ditched near the West German freighter Mьnsterland and were rescued.


Aftermath
The USSR denied shooting down the DC-3, but a few days later a life raft with Soviet shell shrapnel was found. In 1956, while meeting the Swedish Prime Minister Tage Erlander, the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev admitted that the Soviet Union had shot down the DC-3. This information was not released to the public at the time.

In 1991, the Soviet air force admitted it had shot down the DC-3. In the summer of 2003, a Swedish company found the remains of the downed DC-3 by using sonar. Some time later the Catalina was also found, 22 kilometers east of the official splashdown point..


Conclusion
Bullet holes showed that the DC-3 was shot down by a MiG-15 fighter. The exact splash down time was also determined, as one of the clocks in the cockpit had stopped at 11:28:40 CET. To this date the remains of only five of the eight-man crew have been found.

Not a very honourable moment for the USSR eh boroda?

[angelsandair]

Originally posted by ZetaNine
I was waiting for someone to say "nothing new"...but actually....alot is new.  It's a different world now....we're in a protracted global war.....and we're being "tested" by too many lately....and quite frankly...I'm sick of watching us whipe spit off our faces from it all.

Well then we need to quit being the mayor of pussville and be the sheriff of ballstown. Shoot em down, They wont do crud except accuse us in a non-threating way. They know hillary might be elected and they are taking advantage of it.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Slash27
Wow, doesn't take much to be a hero in Russia these days does it?

lol

Sounds to me like we need to fire up the Tomcats again.
Problem was... The jocks in the super hornets were too busy playing Xbox 360 on their fancy new HD MFD's.

[FrodeMk3]

Originally posted by angelsandair
Well then we need to quit being the mayor of pussville and be the sheriff of ballstown. Shoot em down, They wont do crud except accuse us in a non-threating way. They know hillary might be elected and they are taking advantage of it.

Mmmmm...Around election time, though, that card could also be played other ways...A repub could use this, as well.

[Lumpy]

Originally posted by REP0MAN
Who would fly that old hunk-o-crap that low. I'd be afraid something would fall off and at that altitude, there ain't much glidin'.....

Why do you say that?