Tips on the P-51

[goober69]

yes i love going nose high in a nik with a pony on my six and watch him fall beneath my turn till i gain enough e to drop behind him for a shot,
usualy only works on suckers though.

[RedTop]

Hi Donkey,

Basically to me the 38 is like you said....doesn't do anything real well....but does everything. The combination of things make it very formidable in the right hands.

I think and this is just my opinion , that the 38 is harder to master than the pony. It's bigger and lumbering. GREAT flaps on the 38 but it compresses easier....stalls easier (IMO) and just is tougher to get the hang of.

So  , with that said the pony just seemed easier o fly. Fast , decent guns , good high speed turns...but can be just a ROCK when not flwon right.

I think it is all just a matter of how much time one spends in what. I have flown the 38 quite a bit...and haven't learned it yet. The pony I have flown quite a bit...and just find it easier.

Basically is all I meant.....<> Bud

[whiteman]

Originally posted by Agent360
Most of you know I am a 109 driver. But I have been experimenting with the p51D in stall fighting and low speed maneuvering.

The P51D can be and in my opinion a very good stall fighter. But one must use angles.

The main advantage is the combat flaps which do come out at 350 ish. or 400 not sure on the exact speed.

The secret is to use ONE and only ONE notch of flaps on your turns. When using this tactic make your turn vertically at about a 30 degeree oblique angle. Althout the pony turns excellant at hight speeds the turn radius at over 300 is larger than most "turny" planes.

By using one notch of flaps at the merge you can whip around in an oblique turn incredibly sharp and still hold E if you reel them in quick enough.

Once you have made 50% of the turn reel the flaps in immediatly. You only need the flaps to make the nose come around.

Use your superior speed to keep just enough seperation so that u can again deploy then to make your second turn. This can be done while diving away or going up.

This tactic allows you to remain fast but turn exceptionally sharp never allowing your contact to close enough for a shot but allowing you to continue close in platform shots.

Anyone can fly it a 400mph and go up to 5k and come back down. But what usually gets someone killed is trying to slow down enough to get a good kill shot. This is when you get caught.

But if you can remain at around 300 mph or so using only one notch of flaps for turning you will find that it seems like you are flying a spit.

If you do get caught and can not gain enough seperation before the con closes to guns range then roll out all the flaps put on web and turn that sucker. Use standard verticle moves.  Roll over at the top. use verticle. It will work.

I think the pony is way understimated in its ability to stall fight.

Thank you very much, been having a rough time with this plane.

[DoNKeY]

Originally posted by RedTop
Hi Donkey,

Basically to me the 38 is like you said....doesn't do anything real well....but does everything. The combination of things make it very formidable in the right hands.

I think and this is just my opinion , that the 38 is harder to master than the pony. It's bigger and lumbering. GREAT flaps on the 38 but it compresses easier....stalls easier (IMO) and just is tougher to get the hang of.

So  , with that said the pony just seemed easier o fly. Fast , decent guns , good high speed turns...but can be just a ROCK when not flwon right.

I think it is all just a matter of how much time one spends in what. I have flown the 38 quite a bit...and haven't learned it yet. The pony I have flown quite a bit...and just find it easier.

Basically is all I meant.....<> Bud

rgr that.  Guess I just had the image of one pilot fighting himself, one in a pony the other in the 38 and somehow saw the 38 guy winning.  Nice response, .

donkey

[uberslet]

Originally posted by whiteman
Thank you very much, been having a rough time with this plane.

if the Blue arena has TT still you may want to check that out in a 51, you will lern it quickly, especially the .50's.

[Scotch]

Agent and I hit the DA for over an hour in the 51d tonight. We were getting pretty drunk, but I think learned/demonstrated a fair amount. Maybe i'll pass on the film tomorrow? k k cya

[Hawk55]

Originally posted by The Fugitive
The pony is not known as a good turner low and slow, because its main strengths are in the "high and fast" areas, but it handles well as long as your smooth when low and slow. It certainly won't out turn an F4 or F6 if those are flown by a good pilot, but it will surprise and average pilot in them.

As for targeting, is a page I put together years ago that explains the use of a site in targeting.

Very nice page Fug!  Thanks.  

[humble]

Overall the pony is very pilot dependent in how U try and T&B it....

Basically most people evolve out of two schools of aircraft control as it relates to "dogfighting". Those that primarily evolve a linear view of the fight (focused primarily along there lift vector) think in terms of elevator authority{think spitty/hurricane driver}. As a general rule the pony doesnt respond particularly well to this style since it scrubs alot of E for relatively nominal gain.

The second major group is what I would call the "offset" style that actually relies very heavily on rudder authority to shape a fight {think 109/hog driver}. These pilots tend to view/manuever in the oblique with the con (and lift vector) offset to one FQ view or the other. This normally promotes a more vertical fight with rudder/roll controlled slashing attacks...this "rotation" vs turn pulls lower G's and allows high speed slashing reversals that mimic alot of the attributes of the "true T&B"

To fly the pony well in a T&B mode you need to be out of plane with your target since your normally inferior in a matched lift vector engagment. you need to diligently "fly the X" to reload E and work your rudder/throttle to bleed E as needed for snapshots while maintainng enough E to control the fight.

The downfall of most pony drivers is being to fast initially then getting to slow in frustration. Most good pony drivers "tighten" a fight quickly...using 1 or 2 passes to set the bogies speed and then shortening the upper leg of the next attack to hit the con with a 75/25 (rough speed differential) set of passes. The "pony ace" follows the aggresive pass with an even more aggresive one often catching the con by suprise.....but not sucumbing to a true T&B fight. Throttle & rudder is the key to the pony IMO...

[trap2000]

Humble, could you explain what “flying the x” is and how rudder/throttle are used to accomplish it?

[humble]

flying the "X" is using the semi verticals in a fight vs the pure vertical or horizontal. Basically its flying hi to low and low to high vs a flat turn or a loop. If we view the fight from the other guys perspective the guy on the X is normally out of plane to either a loop or a flat turn. If both planes are in plane in the horizontal (or vertical) then the fight is controlled by almost entirely by power/wingloading...one we get out of plane then other elements come into play. Even the slowest turing plane can role its lift vector (roughly the up to front up view) faster then the fastest plane can turn an equivelent arc of movement....so an aggressor flying out of plane in a hi yoyo can use roll to reorient his lift vector ahead of the flat turning bogy and then manage his shot window with rudder input...in addition the elevator authority is getting an assist from gravity as he goes over the top + he's slowing and conserving E vs just burning it in a flat turn...as he accelerates down into the shot the rudder/roll can act as a brake or move him from lag to lead pursuit or both...if his timing is off he can simply roll away from the con back to the vertical to reload and maintain control of the fight...

If we view thw ponies performance at typical AH altitudes vs either the spit XVI or La-7 (two typical opponents) the pony is "losing" every moment its in plane with either and pulling G's since it cant out turn or out accelerate either. By taking the fight "out of plane" the pony driver is attemting to make it a contest of ACM and not the planes inherent capabilities in a "dog fight". The out of plane manuevers make judging angle off, E state and angular gain much tougher then the in plane chase the other guys tail fight does and allows for greater creativity and aggressivess in ACM...

[CAP1]

Originally posted by humble
flying the "X" is using the semi verticals in a fight vs the pure vertical or horizontal. Basically its flying hi to low and low to high vs a flat turn or a loop. If we view the fight from the other guys perspective the guy on the X is normally out of plane to either a loop or a flat turn. If both planes are in plane in the horizontal (or vertical) then the fight is controlled by almost entirely by power/wingloading...one we get out of plane then other elements come into play. Even the slowest turing plane can role its lift vector (roughly the up to front up view) faster then the fastest plane can turn an equivelent arc of movement....so an aggressor flying out of plane in a hi yoyo can use roll to reorient his lift vector ahead of the flat turning bogy and then manage his shot window with rudder input...in addition the elevator authority is getting an assist from gravity as he goes over the top + he's slowing and conserving E vs just burning it in a flat turn...as he accelerates down into the shot the rudder/roll can act as a brake or move him from lag to lead pursuit or both...if his timing is off he can simply roll away from the con back to the vertical to reload and maintain control of the fight...

If we view thw ponies performance at typical AH altitudes vs either the spit XVI or La-7 (two typical opponents) the pony is "losing" every moment its in plane with either and pulling G's since it cant out turn or out accelerate either. By taking the fight "out of plane" the pony driver is attemting to make it a contest of ACM and not the planes inherent capabilities in a "dog fight". The out of plane manuevers make judging angle off, E state and angular gain much tougher then the in plane chase the other guys tail fight does and allows for greater creativity and aggressivess in ACM...

so what it sounds like you mean........is basicly flying lazy 8's, but at higher speed than they're taught in something like a cessna.........merge, pull slightly up, use the rudders to force a bit of roll, and since you're gonna bank just from that, that'll bring ya around faster than a simple flat turn......then repeat/rinse/modify as needed?
sorry if this sounds stupid, but i am one of those that you mentioned in an earlier post that tries to keep his lift vector on the bogie...and apparently this is a bad idea in the pony,

also....besides missing 2 guns...any disadvantage to the pony B?

thanks to ALL of you! from this info, i have actually earned a couple kils in the pony.

<>

[humble]

It's not flying a specific pattern per se, since you need to either react to or dictate the fight to the bogie. "Most" pilots either see a dogfight as a "flat" fight or as a looping fight....in reality often good tactics require a melding of both. you may need to slow or speed up to "corner" speed or may need to defend your 3/9 line from potential overshoot...all of which require going out of plane. Putting the lift vector on the bogie isnt always the right or wrong thing to do...but in a plane that bleeds E fast and turns relatively poorly its not normally the "correct" approach.

Now once your out of plane then any elevator authority will simply move your nose in plane with your lift vector...not the con. So from an out of plane position we need to 1st determine what type of pursuit (normally i'm out of plane in lag) angle to take...ideally you'll transition from lag to a course that will allow you to smoothly "pull" thru the bogies flight path from lag to lead as guns come to bear on the con. The major motion here is rolling the lift vector and the gun solution corrections are normally rudder controlled. The 109/hog (and many other) sticks live on these "rudder over" kill shots routinely defeating better turning planes by bringing roll and control surface authority (especially at higher speeds) into play. So while the con takes the long way from 1st thru 2nd to 3rd the guy flying the "X" flys to a point up above the pitchers mound and rolls his plane toward roughly 1st base...so he's watching the con then pulls on down thru toward shortstop or so with enough curve so he's flying down the base path coming in from above...if he gets the shot great...lets say he doesnt have the shot and the con breaks for home...the "X" drive pulls vertical before he hits 3rd (judgement on if you have the shot is important and rolls his plane AWAY from home plate so his lift vector is pointed down the outfield line....this allows him to then pull thru so he's flying right down the line from 3rd to home faster then if he tried to follow the con the other way....this type of a lag displacement roll is very effective as an offensive move here....until another friendly or con arrives you can rinse and repeat till you get it right...