Author Topic: P-47????  (Read 2201 times)

Offline 1Boner

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P-47????
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2008, 01:52:43 PM »
I upped a p-47 d11 in the LW  for the 1st time last nite.

Messed with the convergence 1st.

Shot down 4 planes in about 15 minutes.

It was almost like i couldn't miss.

It was indeed a "wall of lead"

Awesome.

Gonna use it alot more.




Turnin into a Juggie boy,

Boner
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Offline angelsandair

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P-47????
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2008, 02:05:23 PM »
I CANT FLY JUGGIES ANY GOOD!!!!
Quote
Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline Karnak

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P-47????
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2008, 02:38:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LilMak
So a Jug will throw 96 rounds per second and a spit will throw 20. So for every single 20mm that hits, 4.8 .50s will hit. Almost 5 to 1.

Now I ask you. (Be honest now)
You're a Geman in the middle of a dog fight in WWII. At the last second, you see tracers flying across your nose and a fighter is comming broadside for a 90 degree snapshot. You're going to have to fly through 0.20 seconds of a bullet stream. He's gonna pepper you from spinner to rudder.

What would you rather see comming at you...a Spit or a Jug? Who do you think has a better chance to do damage to your plane or, worse, your body?

The Spit.  The P-47 will not "pepper you from spinner to rudder".  You are grossly overestimating fire density again.  The P-47 is more likely to get a few hits in, but in a situation were it will pepper you like you describe the Spit's 20mm cannons will disassemble your plane.  Both actions take more than .20 seconds of exposure to fire.

The Spit has two 20mm and two .50 cals...., hence the total being roughly equal to eight .50 cals.  Three each for the 20mm and one each for the .50s.

But....

By a very large margin most kills were not done from brief crossing shots, and if they were it was far more likely to happen from a 20mm hit than a .50 cal hit or three.

Basically, if you can't hit with two guns you aren't going to hit with eight guns.  That is a paraphrase of a comment by an American ace.

I am not saying the .50 cals were incapable, just that they were not as good as 20mm cannons, particularly against larger aircraft.  Against light aircraft like A6Ms or Ki-43s even .303s would do fine.  .50s and 20mms are overkill.
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Offline angelsandair

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P-47????
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2008, 04:52:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
The Spit.  The P-47 will not "pepper you from spinner to rudder".  You are grossly overestimating fire density again.  The P-47 is more likely to get a few hits in, but in a situation were it will pepper you like you describe the Spit's 20mm cannons will disassemble your plane.  Both actions take more than .20 seconds of exposure to fire.

The Spit has two 20mm and two .50 cals...., hence the total being roughly equal to eight .50 cals.  Three each for the 20mm and one each for the .50s.

But....

By a very large margin most kills were not done from brief crossing shots, and if they were it was far more likely to happen from a 20mm hit than a .50 cal hit or three.

Basically, if you can't hit with two guns you aren't going to hit with eight guns.  That is a paraphrase of a comment by an American ace.

I am not saying the .50 cals were incapable, just that they were not as good as 20mm cannons, particularly against larger aircraft.  Against light aircraft like A6Ms or Ki-43s even .303s would do fine.  .50s and 20mms are overkill.


Well I want my killz to be dead.....
Quote
Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline LilMak

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P-47????
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2008, 11:05:29 PM »
OK. First of all, I don't think I'm overestimating fire density. In my example, you'll get hit with 4.8 .50 rounds from the Jug or 1 20mm from the spit and maybe 1 .50. You said yourself "Bullets are small and there is a lot of space out there for them to disperse into" This is true of .50s and 20mms. So if I'm the German in my example, I'd rather be crossing a Spit's bullet stream than a Jug's. I'f Im going to gamble my life on which plane is more likely to kill me, I'll take the fewer bullets flying my way every time. Especially since I've fired the .50 and know what it's capable of. Please understand that I'm not, under any circumstances, questioning the killing power of the 20mm. All I'm saying is that the Jug didn't need 20mm guns because it punched hard and threw out more lead per second (in weight) than a spit.  I think there are two reasons the US didn't change to 20mms. First, they weren't shooting down bombers nearly as often as the other countries in WW2 and the .50s were more than adequate for bringing down fighters and strafing ground equipment. Second, was the logistics. They (.50s) were plenitful, cheap, and dependable. You could (pretty much) load the same .50 round into a jeep, tank, or aircraft. The US didn't really abandon the .50 in aircraft until Korea when thay foud that jets, with more robust construction and fewer moving parts to break, were not as susceptible to the gun.

As far as the punching power of the Jug's .50 I give you this...

"The 332nd Fighter Group also distinguished themselves in June 1944 when two of its pilots flying P-47 Thunderbolt aircraft discovered a German destroyer in the harbor at Trieste, Italy. One of the pilots, Lieutenant Gynne Pierson of the 302nd Fighter Squadron, using only the aircraft's 50-caliber machine guns, strafed the destroyer, causing it to explode and sink."

Ya gotta love the Tuskeegee Airmen!
"When caught by the enemy in large force the best policy is to fight like hell until you can decide what to do next."
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P-47 pilot 56th Fighter Group.

Offline Bodhi

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Re: Re: Re: P-47????
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2008, 11:43:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
While the F6F had a spectacular kill to loss rate (19:1 against all types), the FM-1 and FM-2 managed a 26:1 ratio against Japanese fighters, and a 97:1 ratio against bombers and various other types.

My regards,

Widewing


I'd say add the Wildcats into that, (which the FM-1 and FM-2 basically are) and the KtD ratio drops.

It was interesting to see the SBD mentioned as "the safest" aircraft.  Very surprising.
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Offline angelsandair

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P-47????
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2008, 12:29:56 AM »
Well im not saying put 4 or 6 20mms into the jug, just kind of wondered how it would do.....
Quote
Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline JeepinAZ

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P-47????
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2008, 02:00:38 PM »
How's about 8 Hispanos in a Jug since we're dreaming? Talk about a HO'n Machine... everyone would be screaming JUG'HOer!!! Then the Jug would be the new "lets perk this because it kills me everytime" ride.

:cry


:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Offline angelsandair

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P-47????
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2008, 03:13:24 PM »
Definately......... But dude i think that would either have a low perk load or have a high perk like the Tempest...........
Still we can all dream....... "the new dweeb ride..." :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Quote
Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline Hajo

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P-47????
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2008, 10:24:14 PM »
Generaly......success was greater in the PAC because Japanese aircraft were lightly armored and lightly gunned for the most part.  There are a few exceptions such as the N1K etc.  But all in all Japanese aircraft were more fragile and had mininmal armour protection until later in the war.  And that includes self sealing fuel tanks.
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Offline angelsandair

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P-47????
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2008, 10:58:13 PM »
definately hajo
Quote
Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline Wolfala

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P-47????
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2008, 01:49:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by LilMak
OK. First of all, I don't think I'm overestimating fire density. In my example, you'll get hit with 4.8 .50 rounds from the Jug or 1 20mm from the spit and maybe 1 .50. You said yourself "Bullets are small and there is a lot of space out there for them to disperse into" This is true of .50s and 20mms. So if I'm the German in my example, I'd rather be crossing a Spit's bullet stream than a Jug's. I'f Im going to gamble my life on which plane is more likely to kill me, I'll take the fewer bullets flying my way every time. Especially since I've fired the .50 and know what it's capable of. Please understand that I'm not, under any circumstances, questioning the killing power of the 20mm. All I'm saying is that the Jug didn't need 20mm guns because it punched hard and threw out more lead per second (in weight) than a spit.  I think there are two reasons the US didn't change to 20mms. First, they weren't shooting down bombers nearly as often as the other countries in WW2 and the .50s were more than adequate for bringing down fighters and strafing ground equipment. Second, was the logistics. They (.50s) were plenitful, cheap, and dependable. You could (pretty much) load the same .50 round into a jeep, tank, or aircraft. The US didn't really abandon the .50 in aircraft until Korea when thay foud that jets, with more robust construction and fewer moving parts to break, were not as susceptible to the gun.

As far as the punching power of the Jug's .50 I give you this...

"The 332nd Fighter Group also distinguished themselves in June 1944 when two of its pilots flying P-47 Thunderbolt aircraft discovered a German destroyer in the harbor at Trieste, Italy. One of the pilots, Lieutenant Gynne Pierson of the 302nd Fighter Squadron, using only the aircraft's 50-caliber machine guns, strafed the destroyer, causing it to explode and sink."

Ya gotta love the Tuskeegee Airmen!



Mak,


Just a heads up. The ROF per gun is 13 rounds per second per gun. So the throw weight is actually 104 rounds per second. What makes the difference ultimately in being successful with the P-47 is how you have your guns set at convergence.

My settings are my inside guns set to 475, and out my outside guns at 425. I have no problem landing 8 kills in a single run, and .5 second shot is all I need to do the job.


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Offline angelsandair

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P-47????
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2008, 01:58:05 AM »
Man I'm really really suprised a thread about a stupid question of mine got so far

:rofl
Quote
Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline Serenity

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P-47????
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2008, 02:31:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by angelsandair
Man I'm really really suprised a thread about a stupid question of mine got so far

:rofl


Yes, well, notice im the first one to actually acknowledge the fact that youre still posting here...:aok

Offline RTHolmes

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P-47????
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2008, 04:38:11 AM »
as I understand it both the USN and USAAF were desperate to convert from .50s to cannon. the only reason they didnt was that US-produced versions of the Hispano were utterly unreliable.

The RAF wanted more Hispanos too and commissioned extra from the US, however as time went on and production problems in the US were not being sorted, UK production of the Hispanos increased enough to cover the RAF's needs and the orders were cancelled.

If the production had been there I'm guessing pretty much all of the US .50 cal birds would have had a C-Hog loadout.
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