Author Topic: Utah college kids get armed (Read 1826 times)

cav58d · « **Reply #60 on:** February 22, 2008, 02:09:25 PM »

After reading some of my past comments, considering comments made by all of you, and putting some more serious thought into it, my position has slightly bent.

At the end of the day, obviously staying alive far outweighs some of the negative reprecussions, such as the anxiety and un-needed attention a weapon would bring to a class room. I would support certain individuals (students) and their right to conceal a weapon in a class room under certain conditions.

What comes to mind would be full disclosure and approval by the University Police Department. Notifying the Police Department when the weapon is being carried; whether you carry it every day, or once a semester...Every day the weapon is concealed and in a class room, you most notify the police.
Most importantly, I would support this only after the carryer (sp) sucessfully completes additional weapon training, and re-currency (possibly every 60 days) to be granted permisson to carry the weapon.

Under these circumstances, I would support students carrying concealed weapons in a class room. But only under these conditions. Any moron can get a gun. The basic training required and the background check are not hard to pass, and I don't think they suffice for the additional training, and re-current training I think would be needed to be effective in the situation.

And i'm sure that most of you are extremely responsible gun owners. Because you are so responsible, and maybe most of the people around you are as well, it might be hard to realize, that for every responsible weapon owner...There will always be another freaking retard with a gun, whether carrying his weapon is legal or not.

kamilyun · « **Reply #61 on:** February 22, 2008, 02:37:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKIron
If allowing handgun carry on campus saves more lives than destroys then they should be allowed. This should be a simple matter of arithmetic, not an emotional fear fest.

I don't disagree about guns on campus, however, I don't think anyone really should follow the arithmetic argument.

Trell · « **Reply #62 on:** February 22, 2008, 05:25:20 PM »

Don’t know about the rest of you, But back in high school we did not have this silly gun free zone, We had a large number of hunters that would keep there guns in the car and go out hunting after school.

A number of teachers used to keep the rifles in the closet and would even take them off new guns when they bought them, as well as talk about good hunting spots and shooting in general. Never had any problem with shootings.

Anyone that takes the time to get a ccw should be able to carry it into ANY public building. Most people wont take the time to get them.

Will this reduce the number of shooting at schools? Of course not.

But what it may do is reduce the impact those shooters have at the school.

Guns don’t prevent crime. It is a silly argument.
Guns prevent the escalation of that crime

Elfie · « **Reply #63 on:** February 22, 2008, 06:06:10 PM »

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Guns don’t prevent crime. It is a silly argument.

Actually.....according to DoJ figures firearms, or more accurately, the mere prescence of firearms prevent anywhere from 1.5 to 3 million crimes per year. In the vast majority of instances the firearm is never discharged.

Trell · « **Reply #64 on:** February 22, 2008, 06:30:09 PM »

Not to be a pain in the ass, But could you post a link?, Would like to see how they define prevent. and how they get the numbers

FrodeMk3 · « **Reply #65 on:** February 22, 2008, 07:19:08 PM »

The bad thing is, Since CCW isn't as widespread, And most people go unarmed, It's really all going on theory. The gov't. would really have to just try it out for awhile, and see how it works.

Of course, you have a pretty strong anti-gun lobby in congress at any given time, anymore. Implementing widespread CCW usage is going to be confined to the willing, as well. You would have to take a poll, and see exactly how many students' would be willing to carry, given the means. Then, you might be able to get some idea of it's effectiveness.

And also remember, It would have to come down as some sort of Federal mandate. Individual schools' still maintain the power of whether or not a person can carry on their campus, proper CCW certs' or not. If Hillary or Obama wins' the election, I doubt we'll see any such thing, at least for 4 to 8 years.

Hell, we've had 8 years' of Republistudmuffins, and they had all the things' during Clintons' term (Columbine, anyone?) And they didn't do diddly, just ignored the problem.

Btw, Bluedog, what you are describing isn't really a problem with american schools, but our Modern culture/society as a whole. We'd really have to start another thread on the fabric of 2008 America to sort that out.

Elfie · « **Reply #66 on:** February 22, 2008, 07:42:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Trell
Not to be a pain in the ass, But could you post a link?, Would like to see how they define prevent. and how they get the numbers

I don't have the link handy and the DoJ website is a pain in the butt to navigate imo.

I think part of how they arrive at those numbers is people who report the attempted crimes.

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #67 on:** February 23, 2008, 10:38:03 AM »

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Originally posted by SIG220
Remember, Ruger Mini-14's are still legal to buy in California:

Mini-14's don't look evil at all. They are nice, good guns, unlike the AR-15.

Why do you need a scope just to spray into a crowd?... Or are you contimplating a tower sniper spree?

lazs2 · « **Reply #68 on:** February 23, 2008, 10:52:06 AM »

cav.. I salute you for looking at the facts and then changing.. or at least modifying your preconcieved opinion.

There is hope for the young.

lazs

lazs2 · « **Reply #69 on:** February 23, 2008, 10:58:25 AM »

trell.. I would agree that guns do more to negate the damage than to prevent it but I think the evidence supports that they do go a ways in preventing.

Burglaries in the US are very few in occupied homes but over 50% in say england. Interviews with hardened violent criminals all have the same results.. they are always more afraid of a citizen with a gun than the cops.

where you are correct tho is that there is a small percent of sociopaths and nutters who will never be deterred.. only stopped once they start.

In either case.. a gun in the hand of the good guys always works..

many of the shooters kill themselves at just the arrival of armed people (police).. they would do so if shot at from cover by a CCW holder. In the most recent Co. shooting.. the shooter was hit by a citizen and then just shot himself. It would seem reasonable that he would have killed dozens, perhaps more.. if not for a gun in the hands of a civilian. He probly had the most target rich environment so far and some of the best tools and the most ammo.

Instead.. he shot two going in and then never shot another..

I like that outcome much better than what would have happened.

lazs

lazs2 · « **Reply #70 on:** February 23, 2008, 11:00:07 AM »

Holden.. many ruger and other scope mounts are "see through" type.. you can use the peep sights or the scope. Guess if I was a nutter wanting to kill I would go with the see through scope option.

lazs

Bluedog · « **Reply #71 on:** February 24, 2008, 11:05:57 AM »

It wouldn't matter if the mounts holding that scope on were completely see through Lazs, the objective lens pretty much touches the barrel.
Only way you are gonna see anything the other side is by looking through it.
Too much scope for the rifle by far, can see all kinds of stuff way out there that it will never hit, the barrel isnt much longer than the scope.
The only conceivable benefit of that scope on that rifle would be low light shots, and the short barrel with no flash suppressor means you better make sure the first one is bang on, 'cause after that you aint seeing jack but retina burn.
Not enough barrel for sniping and for home defense ranges the loss of peripheral vision outweighs any benefit gained by having the scope.

Looks cool though I guess. Needs a folding stock, bipod and bayonet lug to go with it, laser dot too. 200 round snail mag, chrome fore grip, underslung MagLite.....

Quote

Originally posted by FrodeMk3

Btw, Bluedog, what you are describing isn't really a problem with american schools, but our Modern culture/society as a whole. We'd really have to start another thread on the fabric of 2008 America to sort that out.

I would love to seriously discuss that Frode, I am genuinely interested in why these sort of things happen, particularly why they happen so much in America and not so much in other Western countries with similar cultures, like Australia and the UK.
The same opportunity for such shootings exists, yet, so far they haven't eventuated. Granted firearms access is more limited here, but they certainly aren't absolutely unavailable .
What is different in the lives of these killers that makes them do such things?
We have nutcases down here too, some are in college or university and have access to firearms. Why do we not see this happen everywhere?
Is there something preventing it, or has the idea just not occurred to English and Australian nutters yet?

Most importantly, what can be done to ensure it DOESN'T happen here?
What can be done to make sure it never happens in the USA again?
Is there some common factor in all these shootings, something identifiable that may give some warning in the future, something that might give some idea of what these kind of people are up to before they start pulling the trigger on a room full of innocent people?
Innocent kids damn it, college kids, the hope and heart of our future.
Thats the bit that gets me, and scares me, that for all I can see, there is nothing stopping it from happening here, or the UK, or again in the US., or Canada, or anywhere else.
And the people who are dieing are among the cream of the crop, it's not like it is rehab clinics getting shot up here.
Why schools? Why mostly America? Can we stop it?
I don't think banning guns is a good idea, and I'm not sure arming everyone is either.

Is there an answer? Or is it sad and shocking but inevitable, and all we can do is wait for it to happen again.

I agree, probably better left to a thread of it's own, but as one of those dang foreign types, I'm a bit cautious about starting any threads around here that may be perceived as in any way anti- American.
Touchy crowd with that these O'Clubbers.
I may like having a light hearted dig at you guys in less serious threads, but it would be pretty poor form to make light of this.

lazs2 · « **Reply #72 on:** February 24, 2008, 11:24:13 AM »

bluedog.. you are correct about the scope on the mini shown. On mine.. the scope is fixed 4 power with a small tube and no bell to speak of.. All the scope you need on a mini 14.. more than you need probly. I can see the sights quite clearly through (or, more accurately, around) the scope.

You are correct to assume it is a touchy subject here. we do not trust our government.. we have a history of it.. this is some stange thinking to other "civilized" countries who trust theirs. We are also more individualistic than any other nation. We also have one of the most if not the most vibrant societies with about the most diversification of race and culture and language of any nation.. certainly, far more than any other western socialist country.

We are touchy about our right to keep and bear arms. We feel it is what sets us apart.. what separates us from the "subjects" of other nations. It is like the touchiness that some of the other western posters here get when you call them socialists I suppose.. debate decays into anger.

We see no reason that a government should not trust us with guns. The very idea makes us trust them less. We also want to take care of ourselves without their help.. this is the individualism I spoke of.

A fundamental change in our nature is what we would need and I hope that never happens.

lazs

SgtPappy · « **Reply #73 on:** February 24, 2008, 02:06:49 PM »

'Tis a horrible truth... I wonder if, one day, we can advance into an epoch when disputes are settled with words and work rather than with weapons and woe.

john9001 · « **Reply #74 on:** February 24, 2008, 02:08:54 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SgtPappy
'Tis a horrible truth... I wonder if, one day, we can advance into an epoch when disputes are settled with words and work rather than with weapons and woe.

peace is the dream of the wise, war is the history of man.