** Yak vs P-51 encounter (film included) **

[Voss]

 

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Has anyone in the 13th actually engaged a co-alt/co-speed Yak 1:1 before?    

AKDejaVu

Yes. He ended up nearer his ack then I wanted to go. I started off with a 3k alt advantage, and grabbing.

Before you go anywhere with this I have to say that the 13th has shocked me with how much low-level killing they do. Every fiber of my being is screaming "GET OUT" everytime we engage. We have to feed somewhere!  


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[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 02-27-2001).]

[Spatula]

all those that say a p51 is no match for a yak are a little off the money. I can win a co-E engagement vs a yak if the yak pilot makes mistakes and vice-versa. It comes down to the pilots. But the yak is a better performing plane without doubt so it would take some silly mistakes on their part to loose a co-E egagement and/or a real good pony pilot who was prepared to hit hard a fast and catch the yakker by suprise.
It would be a grave mistake to think: "easy lunch" when a yakker encounters a pony.

[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 02-27-2001).]

[Yeager]

I have 11 kills of Yaks and one death to a Yak.

Non issue for me.

Yeager  

[Servo]

In your case Spatula, I'd make allowance. Of course, I probably wouldn't know it was you until it was too late.

Since there are only a handful of P51 experts, I can get by on the Yak's performance vs the P51 when the pilot has equal skill most of the time. When I have the advatage on multiple targets, I'll usually go for the P51 first.

In that film, I do make a few stupid moves, but only because I felt I was in no real danger.

When I was vacantioning in Australia, it was a perfectly normal session to get shot down by Spatula mutliple times.  

Servo
**MOL**

[Yeager]

OK got me to thinking:
Id be an IDIOT to tackle a Yak 1 vs 1 P51D, equal energy and alt.  What are you guys thinking?

Sheese.....

Engage and disengage at will.  Thats what I try to do and thats what the 51D allows me to do better than anything (at least until lady Dora comes to town).

Y

[streakeagle]

As for P51's vs Yak's, does the Yak have better numbers? It better have. The reason the Mustang was the best offensive fighter of the war was it could fly to where the fight was as quickly as possible, have enough ammo and fuel to fight a long time, and fly back home even quicker. The price of those abilities: size and weight. The Yak never had to do anywhere near the job of the P51, so they saved on weight big time... the lack of guns being the annoying part of those weight savings in this game  

But P51 numbers are far from bad. The combination of its unique laminar flow airfoil (unusually good lift-to-drag ratio), clean lines (low parisitic drag), and combat flaps gave it range, altitude, speed, and maneuverability that far exceeded what would be expected given its power and wing loadings. The Mustang was almost never the faster, higher, and more maneuverable than its opponents (true of almost all American fighters even to this day, particularly my favorite the F-15). But it was usually better in at least one of those categories and reasonably close to even its worst opposition in the other categories (except for the Me262).

In history and in this sim, pilot skill has a much greater impact on the outcome of any fight. Just look at the dedicated P-47 and P-38 pilots that get plenty of kills flying "inferior aircraft". In the end, neither pilot wins a dogfight, just one makes more mistakes than the other and loses it.

A lot of the time, some would say my mistake is to fly the pony given the other planes I am fighting. But I would rather die flying a pony than win flying an N1K2.

On most days when I fly ponies, I get run down and killed by competent pilots flying just about anything else. I call that learning by burning. When I get tired of getting trashed, I fly the Spit IX (pony minus 3000 lbs plus 20mm cannons). But on some days, the learning pays off and I can beat even the best of the pilots I have met in HtH while flying the pony. Because even they make mistakes too  

An interesting note: I would estimate that about 1/5 to 1/4 of my kills are maneuver kills. I can usually follow terrain and maneuver violently without hitting it while those so sure they can outmaneuver my pony forget they can't outmaneuver the ground  

So, if you like smoking ponies, come fly against me some day in HtH. But you might find me on one of those days where you get smoked by the pony  

Later,
Stephen the Eagle
aka streakeagle
AH ID: streak

[This message has been edited by streakeagle (edited 02-28-2001).]

[LePaul]

Nice film....can't beleive the coward ran for ACK cover.

Its too bad the Yak doesnt carry more ammo, you had several oppritunities to blaze away at him but with such a low ammo load, you really have to make those shots count.



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Paul J. Busiere

Aces High Arena handle:  BD5Pilot
 http://bd5.checksix.net
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)

[streakeagle]

Yeager,

As I am sure you realize, using your plane's advantage correctly could still allow you to beat the Yak 1v1. When you see a bad setup (i.e. co-alt, co-speed, head-on), you disengage and re-engage until you like what you see.

Sooner or later, the Yak will get bored, frustrated, and/or run low on fuel... presenting you the opportunity you have been patiently waiting for  

Winning a dogfight with only superior range and speed is not easy... but very possible if not very fun.

I love to beat angles fighters with energy fighters... it is an art form. My all time favorite match: F-4B/C/D Phantom (all gunless) vs MiG-17/MiG-21 with positive visual ID rule of engagement. There is no harder dogfight than to be the F-4 in that fight. Makes WWII dogfighting look easy. General Robin Olds (retired) was a P-51/P-38 WWII ace (he thought Mustang was a big improvement, sorry Citabria). He also led the "Wolf Pack" to great victories in Vietnam flying gunless F-4C's. He personally got 4 kills and is sure he would have had so many more if his plane just had a gun.

Later,
Stephen the Eagle

[leonid]

Well, I like to let P-51Ds get on my tail.  I'll fly straight and true right under them, allowing them to dive on me.  As soon as they close to 500yds I'll pull some tricks, and set up for a scissors.  They'll either bite, or be smart and zoom right out of there.  If we're still doing this routine when I need to rtb, then it's up to the 51 driver if he wants to fly into ack, because I'm landing.

And as for flying into ack in general, get over it.  It was a valid tactic then, just as it is now.  I will do anything short of cheating(read, hacking) to get an advantage on my enemy.  This is not some sort of chivalrous duel in the air, but pure combat, and all that matters is if you're dead and I'm not.  Nothing personal, just combat as it really is.

I do have rare moments when I taunt my enemies(like this past weekend), and for that you have my apologies (fscott) - just frustration building up when in an outnumbered situation.  And, no, fscott, you are not a newbie.

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leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights

"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."

[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 02-28-2001).]

[senna]

Personally I've found Yaks to be very deadly adversaries. Some of my most suspensfull fights have been with yaks. My general against a Yak is to be very very carefull. If care is not taken, I often find myself in front of one. Then it's up to my planes envelope to get me out of trouble.

- senna

[Dingy]

Streak,

You obviously havent faced a good Yak pilot yet.  I love to mix it up in the 51 and find that the Yak is a VERY dangerous opponent.

-Ding

[Vermillion]

Yes Streak, the Yak-9U has very good numbers, for a 1 v 1 situation.

Speedwise the Yak is only slightly slower than the P-51D, and thats if the P-51 is using WEP. Once the WEP is gone, the Yak is nearly equal from 20k on down. There is also a narrow band between 5k-9k where the Yak is the same speed as the P-51, even if the Pony is using WEP. By the way, the Yak doesn't have WEP, so its always at its max power/performance.

Most importantly though, is the fact that the Yak accelerates much faster than the P-51, and retains alot more energy in vertical manuevers as well. So if the Pony decides to run, he better not wait until he has bleed alot of speed off, or the Yak is very close to translating onto his six. Because the Yak will catch him before he can get his P-51D up to speed.

Flat turn wise, they are about equal to the left, but in right hand turns, the Yak is again noticeably superior.

Rollrates, both are excellent aircraft, with neither having a real advantage.

The P-51D is superior in range, and gunset/ammo.

So in a 1 v 1 with equal pilots, the P-51 has got to hope for a snapshot (he can afford to take spraying snapshots where the Yak can't) or play the old fuel game. Hit and run, hit and run. Even then, thats a risky proposition. Of course the Pony can disengage at will, as long as he does it early enough in the fight so that acceleration doesn't play a role, and he still has WEP.

The P-51 is probably the better Arena plane, where the Yak is probably the better dueling plane.

I use to fly the P-51 almost exclusively when I cared about my K/D rankings, but now I tend to fly the Yak almost exclusively, because I find it more fun  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[LePaul]

The Yak can also take some amazing damage.  I ran up against one down low when I was flying a pony.  I must have had 30 or 40 hits into him, and he just kept on turning back at me for more.  I played it safe with my energy and knew better than to get into a turning, low alt fight with him.  But the few passes I got into it with him, the most I had him doing was smoking.  Once he popped my radiator, I had to limp home and glide for the runway...    




[This message has been edited by LePaul (edited 02-28-2001).]

[AKDejaVu]

The truth is.. its kind of a moot point in the MA.

I'm 2:1 against P-51's in the Yak.  My one death was in a 20:4 furball where I was actually vulched by a P-47 that augered while I was landing.. giving the kill to the P-51 pilot that had pinged me then ran.

My two P-51 kills were against relatively inexperienced pony pilots.  I was on RW saying "OH MY GOD! HE'S TURNING!.. what do you do against a turning P-51?  I've never seen this before!"  Of course, nobody in my squad had either

AKDejaVu

[Yeager]

Turn fighting low and slow in a 51D is like walking in front of a speeding car.  The result can be safely assumed before hand.

Thats why I try to have a handful of K below me before getting all studly and whipping her around.

Yeager