Author Topic: Vista  (Read 2261 times)

Offline Mr No Name

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Vista
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2008, 01:51:06 AM »
Skuzzy is dead-on, my brother is a Cisco engineer out of their Richardson, TX office... Vista has them pulling hair out.  I participated in all of the RC releases of Vista and tried to use it for awhile... I figured if i wanted to have a slow running computer I could just install XP on my old 266Mhz system i have laying around (Dont laugh, i have a 486/75 laptop on Win 3.1 that I still use!)

I was hoping MS would have been forced by the market to release an XP based "stop-gap" OS like they had to do with Windows ME.  Yes ME sucked overall but a few builds of it actually were pretty decent, I have a machine with ME still because i have an old set of analog CH controls that must be programmed on a 3.1/95/98/ME machine.

On our work network we are actually looking in to a user friendly Linux distro like Ubuntu when our support for XP expires.  For those who laugh, I have used Ubuntu with Cedega to play AH2 with really good results.

Ubuntu.com has a "live cd" you can use to test drive the OS before you change your HD - I was lucky in most respects, My wireless network card and other hardware worked "out of the box"
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2008, 01:57:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mr No Name
Skuzzy is dead-on, my brother is a....  



Geeze no name, what a brown nozer.
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Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2008, 05:24:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Cypher
when you say vista is slower, do you mean in bringing programs up? like when starting word or AH2 longer load times?
One of the things that plagues Vista is the new pre-fetch services.  Those create a false sense of performance increase by preloading applocations into memory.  Yes, while Vista is idle it will simply load up memory with what it thinks you are going to run.

If you happen to hit one of those applications, it seems like it starts lighitng quick.  And it should.  It is being run out of RAM.  The major downside to this is the fact that when you run a game, they all have a tendency to be very dynamic which causes Vista a lot of thrashing as it tries to make room for the ever expanding application by dumping off what it had already loaded.

Actual application performance is down by up to 35% in part to these new prefetch services.  In another part due to the sheer number of background processes Vista runs by default.  The Windows Task Manager has always provided a panacea to users by using a granularity so fat it would take a background process a week to show it is consuming CPU time, when in fact they all consume a measure of CPU time simply due to the Windows loop which all EXE's have to run all the time.

The more background processes, the more CPU time lost to them.  It does not matter if it is Windows 98 or Vista.  In this regard they are all identical.

I could not get any game to run well on my Vista box until I shut down those prefetch services.  Those things caused all manner of warping and stuttering.  I just got through installing Windows XP Pro back on the same box and it is like night and day in the performance difference.  XP just blows Vista out of the water.  Games play nice and smooth with higher frame rates.

I'll ne able to do my job better.  I'll just reload Vista on another box and use it for test purposes.  And of course, I need to rewrite a lot of our documentation as the default configuration of Vista has no "Run" option from the "Start" menu, among other things that we refer to.

It really brings nothing to the user that could not have been brought to XP.  In many ways it is far worse.  Configuring Vista is a nightmare unless you are use to using the NT 3.51 Task Manager and its language.  Vista is a giant step backwards in ease of use.  And lets not forget about UAC (User Access Control).  Now OEM's own your computer as you are no longer the Admin for it, sort of.  Yes, UAC is a kludge.  A big, fat, nasty kludge.

How many people actually enjoy that annoying box popping up everytime you try to install or remove anything?  And for its intrusiveness, the computer is still no safer than it was before UAC came into existence.  Then there is the placement of files for applications when you are not the Admin (OEM computer owners).

Another area I have to change all our documentation as I can no longer say, "look in C:\Program Files\HTC\Aces High II" for your screenshots.   Why?  Because they are not there if you are not the Admin of the computer (OEM owners)!  Nice stuff like that really gets me thinking about retiring early and getting away from this mess.

Everyday I kringe when some user calls with a Vista box complaining about warping and stutters, on perfectly good hardware.  Then the hours I have to spend with them trying to find the compromise in the Vista configuration which will allow the game to run well.  I feel for the user as they get frustrated.  And why shouldn't they be frustrated?  They just spent a good chunk of change for a state of the art computer system which will not run a game well at all.

The number of these calls are escalating.  They really do tax my time, the users patience, and there is no real need for that type of frustration to exist.  This is what Vista has brought to my party.  Substantially higher supports costs.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 05:47:39 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Gaidin

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« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2008, 06:22:34 AM »
Well, I do this stuff for a living.  Stop buying comps from Dell/HP and all the other guys in Microsofts pocket and build your own.  Research your hardware, build it, buy XP Pro for 130 bucks, install, and run.

Vista is not now, nor will it be after SP1 release, ready for deployment.  If you run Vista Basic, then all you have is a prettied up version of win2k.  It will run, but there are combatabilty issues, hardware problems., driver problems.

I run beta on this stuff at work.  I have multiple Vista test boxes, with various version of vista and the SP1.

Oh and to advertise myself, if you want a gaming rig built cheaper than you can get one from Dell, PM me!


Gaidin


PS- There is a number of reasons that most university systems will not mass deploy vista yet.  USG (University system of Georgia)'s beta testing is one of them.
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Offline Xasthur

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« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2008, 06:59:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by scot12b
I have vista. I heard all the problems with it ,I have not had one yet. Maybe a year ago or when it first came out but seems to work  fine for me.


I second this.

Heard all the problems... didn't experience any of them.

The new OS took a small amount of getting used to.

I run Vista with everthing enabled, no programs shut down.... I get a fairly flat 60FPS with all detail settings maxed out and Hi-Res textures installed.

I could probably squeeze more out of it but the fact is that this runs so much better than my old XP machine (granted, it was a very old machine) that I'm not concerned.

28FPS was doing well with everything at minimum and all non-essential apps/progs shutdown on my last machine.

With that same tinkering (using FSAutostart (an excellent program for squeezing those extra FPS out of your machine)) I'm sure I could achieve a flat rate of 60 at all times but as it is it's fine for me.

I drop to about 48 when I get down low in huge furballs with GVs and trees everywhere sometimes.


There is no doubt that a custom machine will run better than a stock box with vista but if you don't know the first thing about all this computer business Vista will do the job sufficiently.

I have a 2 gig dual core HP with 2 gig of ram + a Nvidea 8500GT graphics card with 512mg/r (stock with the machine).

I paid roughly $1400 USD including a Samsung 22" LCD, Logitech keyboard (handy macro keys for gaming) and all the other watermelon that comes with the computer.

I'm sure I could have saved 100 or 200 if I mucked about with a custom rig but I've been happy with my box-bought machine.
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2008, 07:30:04 AM »
Hmm depends when you bought the machine.

You can get a Core2duo + 2gigs + 150gig hd + geforce8500 for about $450 and the 22" Samsung costs $350. That's a lot more than $200 savings.

Gixer: DX10 is a shaft job - you won't be looking forward upgrading to that. All it does is lag you down. Heavy.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 07:59:34 AM by MrRiplEy[H] »
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Offline Fishu

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« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2008, 08:15:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by outbreak
left my XP Pro box running for almost 9 days without a reboot, still played AH without a single drop in FR's :aok


Try two months.

If you use a wide variety of programs under XP it will succumb over time rather quickly. Sure it can stay in good shape if you just use couple of programs, but what's the point of that in regards of true contingency.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 08:17:43 AM by Fishu »

Offline bcadoo

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« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2008, 10:25:34 AM »
Judging from Gixer and Xasthur's results I can only conclude that Vista runs better south of the equator.
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Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2008, 10:31:21 AM »
If you come from a poor installation of XP, then you would naturally think Vista runs better.

Perceptions aside, all applications do run slower on Vista versus XP, on the same identical hardware.  Vista cannot help but be slower.
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2008, 10:44:35 AM »
Skuzzy,

I think the increase in performance noted with the new machine was due more to the better hardware than the older machines that were in use. Yep my  vista HP runs "faster" and boots faster than my old XP box did. Then again I have 3 gigs ram on a 5200 AMD vs 512 megs ram and a 1500 AMD xp box to compare it to. A large enough boost in hardware performance largely overcomes the decrease in OS capability for the average "hobbyist" user like me. Frankly I'd rather have had xp again but the cost in swapping the os was a factor. I was maxed out on the purchase as it was.

I simply went with a "store box" as I couldn't build one as good as this HP is for the same money. In my case money IS an issue and I had to cut corners. Later on I'll get a better vid card and help boost the box up a bit. Maybe after the tax return is in.
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Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2008, 10:50:28 AM »
Certainly a bigger hammer can solve performance issues but you still give up X percent performance gain when using Vista versus XP.
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Offline Halo

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« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2008, 01:59:00 PM »
This is an enlightening and depressing thread.
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Offline Gixer

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« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2008, 02:38:58 PM »
Skuzzy, sounds like you have a love of all things Mircosoft and Vista is your current pet. Sorry mate you can enjoy it even more in years to come as people expect DX10 and move away from XP.

Again I've never encountered a single problem, on my desktop or laptop everything has installed and run first time, even AH is stable. Given the strain that FSX (plus addons) puts on my system I have less crashes then I did running it under XP.

And believe me, there is nothing more frustrating then being 5 hours into a 7 hour flight on Vatsim and have the PC crash.


...-Gixer

Offline Skuzzy

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« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2008, 03:31:54 PM »
This has nothing to do with how I feel about anything.  Vista *is* slower than XP on equivalent hardware.  This is not something subjective.  It is easily verified and I took the time to do so.  You can too, if you like.

And for me, Vista interfered with my ability to do my job almost every single day of the week.  The problems I had were numerous and over time got worse.  The Vista box is now setting on another desk as I am going to have to reformat and reinstall the operating system, per Microsoft, as it simply quit allowing updates from Microsoft's updater.  They could not figure out why.  Gives me a warm fuzzy.

To date, I have yet to see any Microsoft operating system that did not run better after a fresh installation than one that was months old.  My Vista install certainly was better when it was new.  It got progressively worse.  It got to the point where it was not saving data, which it claimed it did.  That was the straw that broke the monkey's back.

Everything I have experienced wrong with Vista is a documented bug at Microsoft.  I have yet to run into anything that has not been reported and verified.

This has nothing to do with my feelings.  It is the way it is.  I had to switch back to XP in order to provide support to the community.  I'll keep the Vista box around so I can try and find better ways to set it up so the game will work better.

I also need to know what SP1 will do to the OS.

And Gixer, I am glad you are happy with it.  All I can hope is that I will be able to retire before Vista becomes too mainstream.  The toll it is taking on me and the customers who are having no end of problems with it is very high.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 03:46:21 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Vipermann

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« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2008, 04:12:30 PM »
Vista is slower than XP...just like XP was slower than 2k. My experience with Vista has been about the same as with XP in the beginning. Some things don't work correctly, most things do. I have noticed no performance degradation on any game I play except one. Railroad Tycoon 3 won't run on Vista.

In addition after installing SP1 every issue I had that could be fixed by MS has been. The other issues I can't fault MS for since they have little control over what drivers other companies will produce. (I know it's all Microsofts fault that HP isn't making drivers for older products because we all know that they get money from HP for every new printer HP sells).


It would be interesting to re-visit this thread in several years and see if it mirrors the complaining being done over the newest version of Windows compared to Vista
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