Corsairs..?

[Stoney]

Originally posted by Saxman
And as Pappy mentioned, the F4U used slotted flaps which, as pointed out by Stoney, cause less drag.

Compared to what?  This is what I was talking about.  You can't make a statement like that.  Just because they're slotted doesn't necessarily make them "less draggy" than another plane with plain flaps.

This is also why I think it's important to know HOW the flaps work in regards to the airflow code. Does HTC just plug in an estimate of how much lift the flaps provide? Or do they tell the game the angle, chord and area of the flaps, how it affects the wing area, and let the airflow over the flaps determine this itself?

This is probably where we wander into proprietary territory.  I wouldn't expect HTC to tell us how they model it.  What I suggest is to draw comparisons based on how aerodynamicists do it today.  There are formulas and principles that can be applied.  But, it takes some work to do it properly.  However, even they can't be taken at face value. They should merely can be used to draw comparisons or to expound on a theory that something in the FM may not be working accurately.

I won't deny that engine torque in the F4Us need to be addressed, (the same is probably also the case in other aircraft as well)

Again, compared to what?  I'm not saying that the torque is exactly what was experienced by a Corsair pilot back in the day.  What I am saying is that, compared to the rest of the aircraft in the plane set, what do you base that statement on.  Do you have a set of data to make the comparison?

[Krusty]

Slotted flaps are nothing new, nor nothing spectacularly uber.



P-47s had 'em.

109Es had 'em too.

Using that as an excuse/justification for why the F4us shave off 50% of their turn while in full flaps, while almost all the other planes with similar flaps get about 25% improvement, is a false claim.

Let's be a little realistic here. The F4U was a nice plane. So was the P-51, so was the F6F. But it didn't fly like THIS game would have you think. Also, note that the AH1 corsairs, nobody complained about lack of performance, but they handled more like p-47s. Here, they gain massive performance enhancements, regular folks say "wait a minute" and then all of a sudden we get a lot of corsair fans standing up for the new performance.

My question is: Where were you when the AH1 performance was uncontested? If this is "right" why hasn't the 8 years of USN pilots in this game cried out to correct it?

Not any damning evidence, but food for thought.


EDIT: Please, also note the spring flaps shown in the F4u underside are probably related to the guns. They only exist directly behind the guns. Maybe to reduce residue buildup etc on the flaps when guns are fired. Note that all along the rest of the flaps these do not exist, and there's precious little air that can get in and across the top from the buttom. Sure, some would, but not as much as a modern airliner's flaps (if you've ever seen those you know what I mean).

[AquaShrimp]

In Greg Boyingtons book (Baa baa blacksheep), Col. Boyington talked about a new pilot in the F4U that was at landing speed and suddenly went to full power.  The plane immediately inverted and crashed.  The pilot was scalped but survived.

Anyone remember this story?

[Saxman]

AquaShrimp pretty much hit the torque issue. The historical F4U would flip inverted if the engine was over-revved to try and compensate for a low speed stall in landing configuration (full flaps, gear out. This behavior is DEFINITELY not present in the game. The F4U will pull depending on trim position, but the snap-invert does NOT occur (I hate comparing the two sims, especially because AH's flight model is generally superior, but one of the few things Pacific Fighters really seemed to do well with the F4U's flight model is over-revving the engine in a landing configuration causing the plane to snap over).

Stoney,

Slotted Flap: Adds camber to the wing, but due to the gap between the flap and the wing, allows air to pass through, meaning it creates more lift with less relative drag

YOU said slotted flaps are less draggy than plain flaps.

[Urchin]

Wow... I just checked that plane comparison site and the F4U-1 really does have a turning circle the same size as a Spit 16 with flaps down.  

That is pretty amazing.

[AKDogg]

Anybody ever consider the surface area of the F4u flaps compared to lets say the spits and such.  If u look at the pictures posted her, the f4u flaps are 2-3 times larger then the spits when deployed.  I'm sure it the same against a ki84 and such.

[SgtPappy]

Dogg raises a good point which we've never went into depth in the other many threads about this subject.

Whenever I lose a flap in-game while flying my Corsair, I retract them in an attempt to stabilize the aircraft. In this case, the wing area is so greatly reduced, the plane falls off easily on that wing and no amount of rudder or aileron can help me from flipping over. It's worse than losing a wingtip.  

Perhaps the large flap area is a part of the Corsair's secret. If I find time I'll try to find some numbers.

[AquaShrimp]

Originally posted by SgtPappy
Dogg raises a good point which we've never went into depth in the other many threads about this subject.

Whenever I lose a flap in-game while flying my Corsair, I retract them in an attempt to stabilize the aircraft. In this case, the wing area is so greatly reduced, the plane falls off easily on that wing and no amount of rudder or aileron can help me from flipping over. It's worse than losing a wingtip.  

Perhaps the large flap area is a part of the Corsair's secret. If I find time I'll try to find some numbers.

Sometimes you don't actually lose the flap.  Sometimes it just jams in that position.  However the game graphics don't display this.  I think this is what is happening to you.  In order to fly right, lower your flaps again until your plane stops rolling.

[Sketch]

Originally posted by AKDogg
Anybody ever consider the surface area of the F4u flaps compared to lets say the spits and such.  If u look at the pictures posted her, the f4u flaps are 2-3 times larger then the spits when deployed.  I'm sure it the same against a ki84 and such.

Hitting the nail on the head with a sledgehammer there!

What about weight difference...
F4U-1: 12,039lbs (the lightest one we have in-game)
Spit 14/16: 8,500lbs (both are the heaviest in-game)

3,539lbs total of weight difference...  Kind of a bit more weight to toss around for that Hog.

Imagine a Spit with flaps the size of the Hogs, imagine those wicked wings!

[Squire]

Spitfire 16 (clipped wings) weighs 7241 lbs fully loaded (no ord). Its lighter than a full span IX or an VIII. The 8500 is a typo. You can check the weights in E6B.

[Sketch]

Originally posted by Squire
Spitfire 16 (clipped wings) weighs 7241 lbs fully loaded (no ord). Its lighter than a full span IX or an VIII. The 8500 is a typo. You can check the weights in E6B.

Nice to know....


but it is still way lighter!

[Brocster]

I forgot why I like this game and community so much... I always thought I know a bit about specs, historical performance, etc... then I read these posts.  Nicely done.

Needless to say, I am very enthralled by the new Hog performance in the game.. I am not sure yet if this performance is indicative of the real world performance.  I always felt in the past (I played AHI and the early parts of II) that the Corsairs did not fly the way they were "Meant to".  I can't really nail what I mean on the head....

Anyways...It is good to be back and see all the intelligent posts.


Broc

[Saxman]

This is the problem with anecdotal evidence vs. empirical numbers.

IE, Bodhi in the previous thread on the issue quoted a pilot who said by no means get slow in the Corsair.

HOWEVER, first the gentlemen didn't say anything about turn radius. He may have been referring to a VERY fine edge between controlled flight and departure, which the Corsair was notoriously twitchy.

Additionally, the point should ALSO be made that the real pilots don't have the infinite number of virtual lives to spend learning just how far the aircraft could be pushed. This is true of almost every aircraft in the game, because we have the luxury of taking a new plane out of the hangar as we're learning to push these ships PAST the envelope.

Thus, a REAL pilot would have called flying the Corsair "scary" (to paraphrase an anecdote from Krusty, I believe) simply because he only has one life, and a mistake while pushing the aircraft beyond its limits that we can brush off and say "Oh well" and try it again, all it takes is one accident and he's done. Then again, there's ALSO stories by experienced pilots during that called the F4U an absolute dream of a fighter (I've never gotten around to finishing Black Sheep One and it's been a while since I last picked it up, but I BELIEVE Boyington was one of them).

The Corsair may have been FULLY capable of performing the maneuvers that we see in the arenas (in fact, I'm pretty sure someone posted airshow video sometime back that shows just THAT). The difference is, there's such a steep and potentially fatal learning curve that pilots who fly the Hog in real life don't dare take the chance to learn just how far she can be pushed.

[SgtPappy]

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Sometimes you don't actually lose the flap.  Sometimes it just jams in that position.  However the game graphics don't display this.  I think this is what is happening to you.  In order to fly right, lower your flaps again until your plane stops rolling.

Oh hmm, I'll get a friend over for a LAN attempt and see if that works. Thanks for the advice.

Just wondering how you came to that conclusion, however.

At any rate, there's mention in the 'pony is awful' thread about a veteran F4U pilot stating that if he attempted anything we do in the F4U in-game, he would not be here.

At the same time there's always some pilots better than others. People thought the P-38 was a widow maker and the numbers of those people dropped when YIPPEE, the 5000th P-38 was flown doing things pilots thought it could never do.

[Old Sport]

First of all, I have no idea if the FM of the F4U with flaps deployed is correct. I posted the slotted flap photos above because someone said that they thought F4U flaps were not slotted.

In any case, I don't think simple comparisons of the F4U with flaps deployed against 109s or Spits or other planes is sufficient either.

The significant anhedral and dihedral of the F4U has a geometric effect on camber, including camber with flaps deployed, that very likely has a significant effect on performance with flaps out.





The following graphic also strikes me that Hitech may have the F4U FM fairly calculated, but I certainly can't say so.



All the best.