Author Topic: Running Graphics cards in SLI  (Read 2356 times)

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2008, 12:12:55 PM »
I've been reading (and contributing to) this thread with interest.  Here's my take on the whole thing:

Early SLI adapters saw almost no performance gains in SLI.  It really WAS just a marketing ploy at that point.  And why were there no performace gains?  Because dual PCIe slot motherboards could only support the slots at x8/x8 (or if you were lucky x16/x8) vs x16 for a single card.  In SLI, theoretically at x8/x8, there should have actually been a performance LOSS due to the master card having to consolidate the output of the dual cards, but the memory gain offset that allowing for a modest performance gain (either that or the x16/x8 configuration seem consistant with the 10-15% performance gain you often hear quoted).

Now, NVIDEA claims a 1.9x performance gain in SLI and numerous benchmarks that I've seen while researching over the past few months seem to bear that out (although not in all cases).  The full realization of SLI is due to the advent of motherboards capable of supporting x16/x16 PCIe slots as well as the advance from split-frame to alternate-frame rendering.  You still can't realize full 2x performance though (and likely never will) due to the master card having to consolidate output.

The advantages of dual proccessers can be seen in many computer technologies today; the ATI dual proccesser cards (2 proccessers on a single card... very expensive), dual core and quad core CPU's, Crossfire and SLI supported motherboards, PSU's, RAM, etc.  There's no doubt that technology is marching toward multi-core proccessing, both in the CPU and GPU environments.  I doubt it will be long before there are dual and quad core GPU's on the market.

In real terms, I've seen benchmark tests where both the 320 mb 8800 GTS and the 528 mb 8800 GT in SLI mode beat the 8800 GTX, but either of those options is more expensive than the GTX so the single GTX still provides the best bang for the buck.  Furthermore, there is a real limit as to how much proccessing you actually need to run todays games on todays monitors, and the 8800 GTX will certainly run them all so do you really need more?  In fact, a single 8800 GT or 8800 GTS will run almost anything thrown at it and the cost savings over a GTX or SLI configuration is significant.  This tells me that from a pure performance standpoint, SLI is not worthwhile.

Still, I'm personally attracted to the idea of SLI both from the dual proccesser technology standpoint and from the standpoint of a "stop-gap" or "poor mans" upgrade option (outlined in a prior post).  There's something to be said for just adding a second card as an upgrade path rather than throwing away your initial investment entirely.

So, in conclusion, both MrRiplEy and alaskahawk are both right... and both wrong.  There are real gains to be had but at what price?

I'm ordering my new system tomorrow and, while I'll probably never use the capability I am ordering an SLI capable motherboard.  I just like the options it allows (and I want the PCIe 2.0 slots... and as long as there are no single slot 2.0 boards out there then it may as well support SLI).

[EDIT]  One more thing to add to this.  I've read that the Intel X38 chipset fully supports SLI but NVIDEA has not licensed the technology to Intel to market the chip as SLI supported for fear of losing their own motherboard chipset business.  That tells me that the offer from Intel simply hasn't been lucrative enough... yet, and that both sides are holding out in the negotiations.  Once NVIDEA does license SLI to Intel, I think SLI will become a much more mainstream consideration almost overnight.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 01:16:52 PM by BaldEagl »
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Wingnutt

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2008, 04:25:40 PM »
even if 2x cards really equaled  2x improvement, which its nowhere close to reality. it would still be a waste of money.

for the price of 2 cheaper cards you could by a singel card that does more, and if you are using 2x the highest end card your not gaining anything either... you might be getting 175fps instead of 125..  which, unless you watch your frame rate counter more than the actual game.. doesn't improve anything.

Offline alskahawk

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2008, 06:40:40 PM »
 Here's two frame rate shots. Asus M2N Deluxe SLI, 2-8800GTX, 2GB Ram, 150mb 10K WD HD, 750watt psu.
Single video card FR; 60 (Vsync on) I have since swapped the video cards to a quad system. On the quas the FR stayed around 400FR (only flew one flight, not enough to call an average) Note; on the post earlier I gave a 3dmark of my quad system. That was strait out of the box, windows just installed defragged and tested(mem running at 667). No bios update or tweaks. Should go over 1400 with bios update.






Offline Wingnutt

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2008, 11:03:48 PM »
quad is a waste of money unless running programs that were written specifically to use it, SLI even more so.. except it sucks even on programs that are optimized for it..

quad + SLI = LOL

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2008, 02:53:13 AM »
alskahawk why can't you understand that the single card performance is 60 because it has vsync on and your SLI has high framerate because vsync doesn't work on it? Your SLI will produce screen tearing and other non-vsync effects.

As far as that quad-SLI goes, a single 9800GTX benchmarks to 13500 points in 3DMark06. That's a way better investment than makeshift technology like SLI.

With quad-SLI you're losing 60% of the performance of the single card. It means you paid for 4 cards but end up having the performance of less than two.

You're paying $1600 to get the same performance of one $600 9800GTX.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 03:08:01 AM by MrRiplEy[H] »
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Offline alskahawk

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2008, 11:07:13 AM »
alskahawk why can't you understand that the single card performance is 60 because it has vsync on and your SLI has high framerate because vsync doesn't work on it? Your SLI will produce screen tearing and other non-vsync effects.

As far as that quad-SLI goes, a single 9800GTX benchmarks to 13500 points in 3DMark06. That's a way better investment than makeshift technology like SLI.

With quad-SLI you're losing 60% of the performance of the single card. It means you paid for 4 cards but end up having the performance of less than two.

You're paying $1600 to get the same performance of one $600 9800GTX.

 4 cards? Yes 4 cards 2 machines. average VC cost per machine; $400. Quad; Bought one VC (for another project) then upgraded to second card few months ago, then switched it all over when I found a deal on the quad.  Other SLI system was built a year ago and has never torn a screen and is virtually maintenance free.
 Economics; Try to find your 9800GTX on sale today. 2-8800GTXs around $800. Your comparing a system built today versus a system built with last years parts. Is it your contention that a SLI  9800GTX won't outperform a single 9800GTX system? Like to see the data on that.
 3dmark06 top system; SLI, extreme quad (5k MHz+),forced air induction. Most systems above 20k are water cooled SLI overclocked quads. By the way my quad isn't for AH. Its for photo/video work and some gaming. If you really read my earlier comments you would have noticed I mentioned the considerations/potential pitfalls of SLI. Those comments are based on experience not what I read in a magazine. This really is my last comment on this.

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2008, 12:58:37 PM »
alska you have a serious reading comprehension problem. SLI is not a viable option price/performance wise and therefore it should only be a last resort for extreme gamers i.e. 2-4 9800 ultra's in SLI at the moment when money is no object.

For the rest of the gamers who want the best bang for the buck, a single 9800 is astronomically better option instead of 2x8800.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline alskahawk

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2008, 11:24:43 AM »
alska you have a serious reading comprehension problem. SLI is not a viable option price/performance wise and therefore it should only be a last resort for extreme gamers i.e. 2-4 9800 ultra's in SLI at the moment when money is no object.

For the rest of the gamers who want the best bang for the buck, a single 9800 is astronomically better option instead of 2x8800.

 This is the best you can do when I refute your argument? Read this; http://en.expreview.com/2008/02/26/9800gtx-3dmark06-score-here-dont-be-too-excited/

Thats a Intel Extreme overclocked 4GHz CPU system not a  2.4 ghz stock system. If you read the comments there are a lot of disapointed people. 
As I have repeatedly stated my system is a few months old. If you reread some of the comments you'll see that we are largely in agreement. SLI is a highend option. And not to be taken lightly. My video cards were purchased last year and are last years tech.  2-BFG 8800GTX (oc) 1 small step below the ultra.

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2008, 09:00:13 AM »
This is the best you can do when I refute your argument? Read this; http://en.expreview.com/2008/02/26/9800gtx-3dmark06-score-here-dont-be-too-excited/

Thats a Intel Extreme overclocked 4GHz CPU system not a  2.4 ghz stock system. If you read the comments there are a lot of disapointed people. 
As I have repeatedly stated my system is a few months old. If you reread some of the comments you'll see that we are largely in agreement. SLI is a highend option. And not to be taken lightly. My video cards were purchased last year and are last years tech.  2-BFG 8800GTX (oc) 1 small step below the ultra.

All SLI will bring you is gigantic power supply needs and problems with game profiles etc. And in the end you'll be stuck with 2-4 totally outdated cards.

SLI is ok if you have a 8800GTX and can get another for half price. I would never SLI a new box with medium cards though. From the preliminary comments it seems like the 9800 was a disappointment i.e. nvidia wasn't kidding when it said it can delay the new architecture because ATI couldn't compete. Still a 9800 is performing better than your quad SLI 8800 for less than half the money.

Did you really mean a $1600 quad-SLI with that 13500 score of yours? If so that's pretty huge hit on performance per card. Considering a single $600 9800GTX gets a similar score..

Btw: Did you already figure out your fps levels were not comparable? I can run close to 150fps on a single 640mb GTS. The 512Mb GTS is 45% faster.

And what goes with 3DMark it's not a valid measurement of gaming performance so the scores are pointless.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 09:24:18 AM by MrRiplEy[H] »
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline alskahawk

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2008, 11:51:49 AM »
All SLI will bring you is gigantic power supply needs and problems with game profiles etc. And in the end you'll be stuck with 2-4 totally outdated cards.

SLI is ok if you have a 8800GTX and can get another for half price. I would never SLI a new box with medium cards though. From the preliminary comments it seems like the 9800 was a disappointment i.e. nvidia wasn't kidding when it said it can delay the new architecture because ATI couldn't compete. Still a 9800 is performing better than your quad SLI 8800 for less than half the money.

Did you really mean a $1600 quad-SLI with that 13500 score of yours? If so that's pretty huge hit on performance per card. Considering a single $600 9800GTX gets a similar score..

Btw: Did you already figure out your fps levels were not comparable? I can run close to 150fps on a single 640mb GTS. The 512Mb GTS is 45% faster.

And what goes with 3DMark it's not a valid measurement of gaming performance so the scores are pointless.

 I stated the pitfalls of SLI earlier. The PSU must be considered carefully when contemplating SLI. I have a 1000Watt PSU. I have never had any profile problems in any other game with SLI. That doesn't mean that SLI was utilized fully. Just that I never had to stop my game because of SLI.  And I agree SLI is a high end option. My SLI is a evolving project. The 2 video cards, computer case came from my AH computer(AMD x2 3.2GHz). Since the boss needed a computer (with ample video capacity)for video work and Tiger direct had a deal on a quad/motherboard I jumped on it. BTW the cost of the video cards; $525 and $475. About half the price of a year earlier. Like most of us I seldom buy and build at the same time. I buy a component one month, maybe two the next and so on.
 If I built a SLI computer today; MB MSI P5 or possibly another 680i board(there are problems with the 780s)
                                           Quad Extreme
                                           2-Top Video cards(haven't reviewed any since 8800s so I'll hedge and say Top)
                                            Not 3. Currently 3rd slot isn't up to speed with other two. Jury is out the 9800s and Direct x 10. More research needed.
                                            2-150GB Raptor HDs Raid 0
                                            1 500GB WD 7.2HD  backup
                                            4GB DDR3 ram or 8GB ddr2
                                            Antec P190 +1200 (1200watts of PSU and case)
                                            Windows XP Pro 64bit

                                          Cost around 3k.

 Now about my 3dmark scores. That's a very early score. Extreme overclocked retail systems get around 18-20k 3dmark. My computer needs a bios update, and some other normal tweaks. I felt is was respectable for a baseline test. 3dmark isn't a perfect analysis for a gaming. It essentially is a graphic/cpu test. It gives a ball park figure.  I have yet to see any evidence that a single 9800 (2.4 quad) is getting over 13k. And even if brand x gets over 13k and if it was available when I build my system (it wasn't)it would have been costly. 

 As far as AH scores. The screen shots posted were from my AMD system when it was in SLI. Someone requested it so I posted it. At the time the system was having heat troubles. Not from SLI, though SLI didn't help. I diagnosed it to be bad air flow in the full tower Utra computer case. Replaced the vc's, computer case (w/antec 900) and memory. Now 35c after hours of AH.
 I flew one flight with the quad. It was about a 5-10 minute flight with no particular profile. Definitely not a valid test. I got frame rates ranging from 727-200. Most of the time the frame rate was in the 400s. I would guess that a single 8800 would get about 250ish with the vsync forced off. More on this later. There is a lot of interest in SLI in the forum so I will post a new thread of 3dmark scores; SLI and single and hopefully some AH frame rates. Though that's going to be tough in a active arena. As every furball is different.

 My quad system; XFX MB
                        2.4GHz Quad Intel
                        6GB Kingston ram(5cl..not optimal, may be replaced)
                        2-8800GTX oc
                        2-7.2 250 HDs. (soon to be upgraded with 10k HDs)
                        1000watt PSU
                        Ultra full tower case(still causing heat problems and will be replaced)

  Note; the frame rates I noted; IMO were a testament to the quad cpu. It was nearly a 100FPS jump over the AMD 3.2GHz cpu. Of course further testing may show that to be just an anomaly.
                                           

   
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 12:00:47 PM by alskahawk »

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2008, 02:27:37 AM »
But the point stands:

1) Your SLI system is not running vsync on - a big no no in AH and/or LCD monitors
2) Your dual 8800GTX performs similarly to a 9800GTX but ends up costing much more

So what's the point? In your case if you want to slap another cheaper card in the system, it's understandable. But for anyone else, the only smart choice would be to first buy the best available card if they wanted gaming performance. Then if that's not enough, add another one through SLI.

If you SLI a new system with mediocre base cards in order to get the performance of the best single card available, you end up losing money as a rule.

You need an expensive SLI motherboard. You need an expensive oversized powersupply. You need better case cooling. You need two to four displaycards with 60-40% end value depending if you use them on double or quad SLI. You need to worry about game profiles and compatibility. You lose vsync. If your system gets a problem you're not going to know if the problem is caused by the exotic SLI setup or some other problem making troubleshooting harder.

I'm sorry but SLI seems like a botch deal for anyone shopping for a new machine and only semi-appealable for anyone upgrading - IF they happen to have a SLI ready motherboard to begin with. In the end it's not a very cost effective solution especially when you consider the potential pitfalls.

Right now a 9600GT based SLI is about the only thing that makes sense - and even then you save only 50 bucks and end up with a more complicated system.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 02:32:26 AM by MrRiplEy[H] »
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Offline Ribbs

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2008, 05:50:01 PM »
I'm new to the SLI topic as I just set up a new system with an Asus P5N-E SLI motherboard, using two GF7600GS cards.  I know that these cards are nowhere near the latest and greatest - I had them and just wanted to experiment with SLI.

Here's my problem; with SLI mode enabled, Aces High locks up within seconds.  AH tech support says AH is compatible with SLI mode, but I must run the SLI profile Nvidia did for AH.  When I open my Nvidia control panel from desktop, I do see the AH game listed under the optimized game listings, but all the settings there are the default settings (this is true for other games it sees on my PC too).  So I'm assuming there is a 'special' profile I need to use.  I've searched the Nvidia website but don't see any such thing - anyone know about this?

Ribbs

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2008, 09:39:59 PM »


The Ge9600 line has 1GB VRAM cards coming out. Tom's Hardware has a review of the first 7 cards or so (comparing all to each other).


Personally, I want a 3870... </drool>

But, those 1GB VRAM core clocks are CONSIDERABLY slower than the 512mb versions.   
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Offline doc1kelley

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2008, 09:51:44 AM »
I'm new to the SLI topic as I just set up a new system with an Asus P5N-E SLI motherboard, using two GF7600GS cards.  I know that these cards are nowhere near the latest and greatest - I had them and just wanted to experiment with SLI.

Here's my problem; with SLI mode enabled, Aces High locks up within seconds.  AH tech support says AH is compatible with SLI mode, but I must run the SLI profile Nvidia did for AH.  When I open my Nvidia control panel from desktop, I do see the AH game listed under the optimized game listings, but all the settings there are the default settings (this is true for other games it sees on my PC too).  So I'm assuming there is a 'special' profile I need to use.  I've searched the Nvidia website but don't see any such thing - anyone know about this?

Ribbs

Hmmm... I used to run Nvidia BFG  Geforce 7800 GT OC 256 mb cards in SLI mode without using any profile and they worked just fine.  What type of drivers are you using?  Stock or modded?  I think we need more information and just how many watts does your power supply displace?  I think someone will be asking for a posting of your Direct X test results here shortly,

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Offline Ribbs

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Re: Running Graphics cards in SLI
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2008, 11:00:13 AM »
Thanks Jay, I did rule out power issues; The MB manual states a 450w requirement for my config - I'm running a 600w PSU.  I also checked again for power connections on the video cards that I might have overlooked but didn't find any to make.

The video drivers are whatever the latest posting on the Nvidia website are (as of last week).  I should also mention I'm running Vista (32bit) and Dx10.  Also, it's not just Aces High that locks almost immediately but World of Warcraft too - weird.  I think I need to look to something beyond just an AH compatibility issue - I was really curious though if the SLI profile for AH should show all default settings (found within the Nvidia control panel).

Ribbs