Author Topic: "Selection" criteria....  (Read 2244 times)

Offline humble

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"Selection" criteria....
« on: March 01, 2008, 03:11:57 PM »
I'm always curious at the way a given planes suitablity for the game is argued. This isn't a push for or arguement against any particular bird...

1) No question that there are certain planes that are obvious...

To me the 410 and G.55 are the best examples here...arguments for various russian yaks/migs I find less so since other very similiar planes already exist. Arguements for Japanese planes (late war) are somewhat similiar although less compelling....

2) The early war set is by far the weakest (outside of BoB) and from a scenerio/FSO perspective this is far and away the most needed aspect to beef up.

3) Looking at apparent game utilization the FSO/snapshot numbers are roughly 7-10% of the player base. As a general rule EWA/MWA runs significantly less then the LWA's often again in the 10% or less range. Looking at the LWA's plane useage is heavily skewed toward higher performance "late war" rides with the hurricane 2C & Tiffie being the most obvious exceptions.

The current perk plane set sees fairly consistant use but already has the 152 dropped (and the SpitXIV should be).

So....

Given the reality that the true "historical" needs are going to appeal to less then 10% of the player base I'm curious how things will progress as we move into the second decade of Aces High.

Other then a few obvious deficiencies most of the planes that will see wide spread use are already here. A few other possibilities do exist but for one reason or another dont really meet the "criteria" (which I dont recall ever seeing "officially" anywhere....

The most obvious historically correct "oddball" is actually an early war plane that did see combat and was fielded at "squadron" strength...but as a "private" airforce....

The H-100D was a 1940 plane with a top speed of 416 MPH and significantly better raage then the 109E it "lost" out to and was flown in combat by Henkle test pilots defending henkle factories...





Going beyond that as myself and others have posted the F6F-5 was factory engineered with a 2 x 20mm option and over 1000 daytime fighters were so configured (primarily the P){however some standard F6F-5's left the factory with 2 x 20mm near wars end as well....

The germans had numerous "field mods" for a ton of planes that operated in non standard configurations as needed.

Again as already posted numerous places a couple of planes were fully operational but didnt "see combat". The meteor is the most notable since it owuld be the "other" jet but the F7F also fits here as well.

Another plane the DO-335 was ordered into production but the factory was bombed. The 34 actually built were not all "prototypes" but some in fact were early production birds.

It would seem looking forward that either we're going to get more and more "niche market" birds with limited use or at some point we'll need to revisit how "we" decide what gets included. Since the upcoming CT as well as the FSO/snapshot/scenario are the true "historical reenactment" somce weight should be given to continuing to "flesh out" the appropriate planesets....as for the MA....it really is the LWA's and some thought should be given to an occasional bone or two...which inevitably will need to be bigger/faster/badder to draw attention and use.

As much as I like the F7F I do think the D0-335 would be an interesting addition for LWA play...just some food for thought looking at the next 10 years...

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Offline Motherland

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"Selection" criteria....
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2008, 04:16:20 PM »
I see the game going in another direction as you seem to...

As far as fighters go, honestly, were almost set. The only ones I could see would be some more Italian, Russian, and Japanese fighters, and maybe a D.520.

Quote
Given the reality that the true "historical" needs are going to appeal to less then 10% of the player base I'm curious how things will progress as we move into the second decade of Aces High.

Even though everyone may not want older planes for historical value/FSO/Scenarios, many like to fly early/mid war planes in the LWMA's.

Honestly, in the coming years, the direction I foresee AH going, as far as new plane additions are concerned, is bombers, bombers, and some more bombers. As far as our bomber fleets are concerned, the planeset falls just short of pathetic. America looks good, but every other country is lacking most of their bombers. Germany, Russia, and Britain are all missing some very good buff's. The Do-17/217, He-111, Tu-2, Pe-2, Wellington,... these are all essential aircraft, IMO, that are missing from the bomberset.

Once we obtain the last few bombers and the majority of the fighterset, I would like to see, though it may not nessecarily, move in the complete opposite direction that you suggested. Instead of moving into the 'one off' prototype LW monster direction, I would LIKE to see a move toward prewar aircraft- early German birds like the 109C and Ar68, earlier British and American planes like the P-36 and the Hawker Hart, which will eventually progress into a World War I planeset (oh, how I would like to fly around in an Albatross shooting down Spad's!)

Offline humble

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"Selection" criteria....
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2008, 06:09:54 PM »
I'd say less then 5% of the player base flies planes higher then ENY 20 on a regular basis. While the powers that be may certainly expand the "bomber fleet" very few of those additions will see any use in the LWA's at all...for the simple reason that they have less bomb load.

The Ki-67 is probably one of the the best tactical bombers of the war and gets almost zero use. The B-26 which is the most tactically correct and one of the most "survivable" buffs in the game gets minimal usage compared to the "big 3"...

Now tactical bombers like the Judy or one of the russian twins that have fixed forward firing 20mm will get useage like the A-20 does as a "dual purpose" ride based on the planes relativr agility and toughness. But you could add every tactical bomber that flew in WW2 and not impact the player base or gameplay at all IMO. The simple reality is almost no one aspires to be a buff driver. Not a single "box" sim focused on bombers has ever gotten any play.

If the game changes in any big way it will be toward the "1st person shooter". The new graphics for the 251 support better ground game play. HT & Pyro have a significant level of MMOG expertise and can probably create a "better" WW2online type game if they ever want to.

10 yrs of D520's, buffalo's and He-111's isnt gonna fatten the bank account much so I honestly dont see that happening...for better or worse most of the player base is "stuck on uber"...adding more "perkies" is where the customer satisfaction wilkl come from...so we get a firefly instead of a stock sherman...and a sk251 complete with rockets...more pop not less.

I think eventually you'll see the perk catagories disappear so a guy/gal can "buy" what they want vs having "skill" in a part of the game. That way a good GVer can use his perks on a 262 or a good buff driver can buy a tiger etc...but in the end 1940 isnt gonna make anyone any money IMO.

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Offline Lusche

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« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2008, 06:16:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
I'd say less then 5% of the player base flies planes higher then ENY 20 on a regular basis. .


I don't think it's that bad:

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Offline E25280

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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2008, 06:28:21 PM »
There is a scene in the movie "Patton" where Patton has just put the third star on his uniform even though his promotion is not yet official.  Omar Bradley says something like (going by memory, forgive the errors), "George, if you were appointed Admiral of the Turkish Navy, I believe your staff could reach into their haversacks and pull out the appropriate badge of rank."

If that was true, I am quite certain Lusche could then pull out a chart explaining why Patton just took over the Turkish instead of the Greek navy.
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2008, 06:43:39 PM »
There are relatively few late war aircraft left to be added that are bonafide WWII aircraft.

A-26 Invader
B-29 Superfortress
B7A2 "Grace"
Ki-102
Il-10
SB2C Helldiver
Tu-2
Yak-3

You could delve into the kinda/sortas:

Do335
F7F Tigercat
F8F Bearcat
He162
Meteor F.Mk III


Most of what we are left with is a massive number of early and mid war designs that haven't been done yet, some of which would do ok in the MA.  I think the Me410, Ki-44, J2M3 and Pe-2 would all see respectable use, but not very high use.
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Offline humble

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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2008, 07:24:16 PM »
Nice numbers lusche but they show k/d not usage...looking at the P-40E and P-38G (early war birds with some "dedicated" flyers they both have roughly 1500 kills this tour vs 32,000 for the la-7 and 33,000 for the spitXVI. The 109E has only 330 but the F goes right back up to 1500. The P-40B has 280...

The C-205 has roughly 5000 and is regarded as one of the great perk farmers in the game I think...the hurricane 2C has just over 9500 and its ENY is 10 now I think..

I think the K/D numbers are skewed by the higher caliber of pilots who fly it. My "5%" is a guess based on my experience in the A-20 in the LWA where I rarely run into much other then the "big 5 or 6" with the occasional 109/Ki-61/ki-84 or jug...

I was 130/32 in the A-20 this tour (I did fly some other stuff) and the vast majority of my kills are spits/lala's/ponies with nikkis and 38's next. The good high ENY drivers are going to sport K/D numbers as good or better then mine so I think it sways the stats a bit. But its certainly possible high ENY use is more then I think....but even if its 10% it doesnt change stuff much.

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Offline humble

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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2008, 07:30:21 PM »
I think the 410 would get alot of use similiar to the A-20. The Judy and Tu-2 also...given that the yak9u we have is about as uber as it got for a yak it would be the same guys switching....same for the A-20 vs A-26 IMO. Ki-102 would get the ki-84 crowd but not many converts I think...same for IL-10. Better versions of what we have but not so much better that usage would change.

Based on how its modeled P-39 might shift stuff, but otherwiae it'll draw from the D-11/109F/P40-E/-1 hog crowd not really "change" the 85%+ that doesnt do "ok" planes.

As far as the "mainstream" player base its the last group that would get alot of play as perk rides.

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Offline Lusche

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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2008, 07:32:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
Nice numbers lusche but they show k/d not usage...

No, they don't. They do show total numbers of actual kills sorted by ENY, not a k/d ratio.
The K/D was only provided for additional info.
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Offline humble

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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2008, 07:52:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
No, they don't. They do show total numbers of actual kills sorted by ENY, not a k/d ratio.
The K/D was only provided for additional info.


So functionally the 10-25 range gets usage equal or greater to the top tier with the real fall off at the 30+ mark. I'd be curious what the actual sortie rate is for the higher eny planes, but would have to agree that useage should be higher then I'd have thought.

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Offline Lusche

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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2008, 08:09:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
So functionally the 10-25 range gets usage equal or greater to the top tier  


Yes, but of course you have a lot more planes to chose from in the 10-25 ENY range than there are <10 ENY aircraft.
Apart from the perked ones, there are only P51D, La7, N1K, Spit 16, P-47N with ENY <10.

Plane by plane Pony, Lala & Spit are still at the top.
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2008, 11:30:41 PM »
He-100D: Not a production craft. The company made 13, no orders place. Somebody has to order it for it to be "in production"... Those 13 used only for propoganda, and most likely UNARMED during this time. If not unarmed, they may have carried 2x 7mm guns in the cowling.

F6F: NO 20mms used on day fighters. A small % of night fighters had some, but most had all 50cals. The constant argument for 20mm on a Hellcat is like saying "The P-51 was designed to take the 20mm all along!" Try getting THAT past anybody.

Do335: Only 20 made it to any squadrons, and not any single unit (like the Ta152H). The factories where the production was taking place were over-run by allied soldiers and the plane ceased to exist. This is a late war bird, so late it didn't exist basically. Production was just beginning when soldiers shut it down.

F7F: A non-entity in this war. It was a dangerous plane, unstable, would spin out into non recoverable spins, and had MANY unfavorable handling problems. This plane flew so poorly that the request the military put out for which this plane was built had to be softened to allow it to even be pursued. It was bloody fast, climbed bloody fast, and flew bloody high, and had a bloody-huge punch (firepower). Those are the only reasons it was being developed. It didn't get anywhere until after the war was over. Sure, it flew "a sortie" on the day the surrender was signed, but by then we'd already steamed into Japanese harbors and there was no more resistance.

Meteor I: Chased buzzbombs. Was fast. None allowed off Britain for fear of losing any.

Meteor III: Some shot up some light ground targets with strafing duties over Europe. They were only allowed in Europe once it was "safe" and the threat of losing any was minimized.

EDIT: P.S. ENY changes. Used to be 40 for a 190, used to be 45 for a C205. Now the C205 is about 20. A lot of planes had their ENY shuffled over time, including the Hurr2c, the p-51, the 109s, the -47s, -38s, etc...

I wouldn't really rank planes by ENY, more by ... I guess "era" (early/mid/late)

Offline hubsonfire

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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2008, 12:17:41 AM »
No matter what is added, the average AH player is going to gravitate toward one of just a few planes. Adding another late war monster, especially one that is comparitively rarer types, doesn't do anything to improve the MAs. One type may replace another, but that's about it. There aren't going to be a lot more scenarios run including this or that late model of Jug or Spit, and I don't know that CT is in need of any more LW planes to get started. Net result of late war planes- one of the current top 4 becomes one of the top 5 or 6.

If the early and mid war planesets were fleshed out, that gives the special events guys greater variety in the events they recreate, and allows CT to offer something other than the later years in the ETO. The AvA gets a little more choice, the EW/MW get more complete sets, and the MAs have another option when ENY goes through the roof, but otherwise nothing changes there. Net result of early or mid war planes- MA use unaffected, additional use in AvA, FSO, Snapshots, Scenarios, EWA, MWA, and CT.

I'm all for having every plane that saw action added at some point, but I personally think the planes that saw a lot of action over periods of years should be a priority over the planes that saw little action over a period of months.
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2008, 03:35:34 AM »
All the talk of latewar monsters and '1946' birds speaks volumes about the mindset of most folks playing the game.  Whether it's good or bad is a matter of opinion I guess but in my mind it says that most players want to accomplish more in a hurry while learning and doing less to learn the game.

Give them a plane that has lots of cannon, goes really fast and encourage them to get their name in lights.

Why would anyone outside of a few die hards that don't care about those things, fly early or midwar birds?

I hope that HTC can balance the desire to increase the player base, and income with continuing to round out the plane set to cover those less then uber birds that fought most of the war.

And yeah I'm one of those die hards that won't fly a latewar bird on principle.   I'd rather die in my 38G and the occasional 38J and about 300 of those 1500 38G kills in February were mine. :)
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Offline Lusche

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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2008, 08:40:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
All the talk of latewar monsters and '1946' birds speaks volumes about the mindset of most folks playing the game.  Whether it's good or bad is a matter of opinion I guess but in my mind it says that most players want to accomplish more in a hurry while learning and doing less to learn the game.

Give them a plane that has lots of cannon, goes really fast and encourage them to get their name in lights.


I have sometimes the impression that players who constantly say "We need the King tiger...We need the F8F... We need the P-80... We need the B-29 ect" do simply forget that everybody else would be able to drive/fly that things too. ;)
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