Author Topic: Israel Gaza offensive  (Read 2516 times)

Offline evenhaim

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2008, 05:04:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
I fail to see the difference between an attack and a preemptive attack.

I mean is that really different when you have a bomb coming your way ?
i believe its obvious... in a preemtive attack you strike first in order to defend yourslef whereas an attack is an attack.

If your being premtivly attacked and a bomb is heading your way its your fualt most of the time.
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Offline Elfie

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2008, 05:17:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
I fail to see the difference between an attack and a preemptive attack.

I mean is that really different when you have a bomb coming your way ?


A preemptive strike or attack is waged in an attempt to repel or defeat a perceived inevitable offensive or invasion, or to gain a strategic advantage in an impending war.

In the case of the 6 Day War, war was coming and the Israeli's could have either sat back and waited for it, or struck first. History tells us which they chose. In the case of the 6 Day War, it makes no difference who struck the first blow in regards to whether or not there was going to be a war. War was inevitable in this case.

No, it really makes no difference to the soldiers on the ground when the bullets are flying. It's more of a political thing.

In the case of the 6 Day War I do believe it has been documented that the Arabs were in fact planning to attack Israel. In that case, the preemptive strike is justified.
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Offline Bronk

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« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2008, 05:33:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
I fail to see the difference between an attack and a preemptive attack.


If a man is walking up to your door with a can of gas and a lit match, do you...

A. Stop him before he gets to your door.

B. Try and put out the fire after your house is ablaze?
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Offline Nashwan

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2008, 05:44:28 PM »
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Yes, Israel did attack first. It was however, a preemptive strike. Egypt had already massed 1000 tanks and 100,000 men along the border with Israel. Israel believed they were going to be attacked and attacked first. The best defense is a good offense.


That's not quite the position. Both Israel and Egypt were rattling their sabres. But as Menachem Begin said afterwards:

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"In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.

This was a war of self-defence in the noblest sense of the term. The government of national unity then established decided unanimously: We will take the initiative and attack the enemy, drive him back, and thus assure the security of Israel and the future of the nation.

We did not do this for lack of an alternative. We could have gone on waiting. We could have sent the army home. Who knows if there would have been an attack against us? There is no proof of it. There are several arguments to the contrary.


Or Ezer Weizman, then head of the IAF, who said the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was justified so that Israel could :

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exist according to the scale, spirit and quality she now embodies


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So many forget, or just plain ignore the fact that it was a preemptive strike and not just unwarranted aggression on the part of Israel.


The truth is it was a bit of both. Israel and Egypt were both squaring up for a fight. Portraying one side as the aggressor and the other the victim is wrong.

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My simplest explanation to any who disbelieves israel's right to exsist is that look at the facts the religion of islam was only established in 70 ad it is quite literally impossible therefor for the jews to have no cliam to this land, nor was it "stolen". Jews have been living in the land of israel for thousands of years before the establishment of islam. (random fact)Did you know that the palestinians took there name from the phillistine empire? A nation with no connection to these people.


I don't think anyone is denying Israel's right to exist. Merely disputing whether  it's policy towards the Palestinians is either just or even beneficial for Israelis.

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Nashwan Israel did sieze these terrotories yes, but to manipulate the citizens....why?


I don't think they seized them to manipulate the Palestinians. Let's face it, to the Israelis the Palestinians are an inconvenience. They would much rather they didn't exist.

I think Israel seized the West Bank because it is part of historic Israel, because it gave them land to expand in to, and because it gave them access to more water supplies.

The point about the Palestinians was in answer to the claim the Israelis have always tried to give the Palestinians what they want. Palestinians have come pretty far down Israel's list of priorities.

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Do you know that palestines where diffused among the arab world in 48 after the Arabs attacked FIRST after DENYING the partition plane set up by the UN?


Can you tell me what the "first" attack was? Because whatever you pick as the "start", I will show you an Israeli attack before that, and a Palestinian attack before that, and an Israeli attack, and a Palestinian attack, and so on back to where the records peter out.

The simple fact is the UN gave away land to Israel that already had a Palestinian population. You wouldn't accept the UN giving away your town, would you? I know I wouldn't, and I'm pretty sure the "cold, dead hands" Americans in this topic wouldn't agree to the UN giving a bunch of immigrants part of America to set up their state.

The sad part is the Jews deserved a state, but the Palestinians didn't deserve to have their land taken away. What you ended up with is white Europeans (which includes Americans) first persecuting the Jews, then taking land off the Arabs to recompense the Jews.

It's not hard to see why that annoyed the Arabs.

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King abdullah of jordan even went so far as to attack these poeple with jets and killed somewhere in the tens of thousands of them. These people are unwanted by all nations even there own supposed "arab brothers".


Which just goes to prove how much they need their own territory.

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Yet when provided territory they screw themselves over by declaring jihad, spitting rockets on sederot and ashquelon and blowing up cafes and busses.


When were they provided territory? Israel might have redeployed troops out of Gaza, but they kept up control of all movement in and out, and proceeded to impose a blockade that further wrecked the Gaza economy.

Look at what happened to the Greenhouses bought to provide an income for Gaza. They lasted until May 2006, finally driven out of business because they could never get their goods through the Karni crossing.

Israel redeployed troops and settlers, but it has not relinquished control over Gaza.

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The palestinain deserve to be portrayed in a different light not the poor nation being raped and pilaged by the evil israeli motherland, and although is israel has made numerous mistakes in dealing with them IMO there is no perfect way to deal with a self harming population.


The truth is the Palestinians are both. Yes they engage in terrorism, but yes they are pillaged by Israel. And it's been going on, with so many wrongs on both sides, that you cannot with any justification point to one side and say "they started it".

Israel is not going to run the West Bank and Gaza for the sake of the Palestinians. The Palestinians are not prepared to continue under Israeli rule. The only way out of this situation is negotiation of final status and separation.

Sadly both sides seem to think there is a military solution, and that a few more rockets/bombs/shells will solve the situation in their favour.

Offline Elfie

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2008, 05:44:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
If a man is walking up to your door with a can of gas and a lit match, do you...

A. Stop him before he gets to your door.

B. Try and put out the fire after your house is ablaze?


That's a good analogy Bronk. :)

Some infos on events leading up to the 6 Day War, pretty general in scope, but still accurate.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/intel67.html
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2008, 05:51:57 PM »
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Originally posted by Reschke
The Palestinians were there long before the Jews.


In the 5th century BC, the Greek historian and geographer Herodotus wrote in Greek of a 'district of Syria, called Palaistinę, from which Latin: Palaestina and Palestine are derived.

Prior to this time the people known as Philistines lived there. (these are the people whom Sampson slew with the jawbone of an prettythang)

The ethnic origin of the Philistines is in some doubt, some say they were Greek speakers.

So no Palestinian existed before 5th century BC, well after the Jews established ancient Israel having arrived in Canaan about 1300 BC.
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Offline ZetaNine

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2008, 07:19:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Reschke
Zeta - Why don't you check up on your history while you are at it. Having been a history major while in college with a specialty in Middle Eastern/Roman history you are incorrect. For a quick glance look at the following link.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Palestine

The word Palestine was actually derived from a combination of Greek, Hebrew, and Egyptian words for some of the different people that lived in the area now referred to as Israel.


only if you promise to check up on your reading comprehension skills...


I was not debating the origin of the word....nor the area....I was making fun of the fact that the bulk of them did not call themselves that until Israel was created.......and successful....and suddenly we had millions of homeless Palestinians ...  

they had their opportunity...and their leader said "no thanks".  Israel aint' going nowhere..... look at a map.... as miller said... a matchbook on a football field...and all they want it to be left alone and continue to prosper.

Offline bozon

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2008, 02:31:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
I fail to see the difference between an attack and a preemptive attack.

I mean is that really different when you have a bomb coming your way ?

The difference is that Israel was not sure it will prevail. 1967 was not that long ago. There are lots of people who remember the "waiting period" before the war and I have many relatives who fought it.

Israel was just 19 years old. It survived the independence war mostly because the arabs were un-organized armies and gangs, except for the Jordanian legion who were excellent soldiers (and this is why part of Jerusalem was not taken by Israel in 1948). In the Suez crisis (1956) Israel fought just Egypt with the support of Britain and France (two colonial empires who have the smallest moral right for any criticism). But in 1967 Israel was facing an arab coalition of regular armies on 3 fronts (4 if you count Lebanon that had a very small part) and no land bridge to any friendly territory.

Israeli moral was low. Very low. Prime minister Levi Eshkol gave a famous horrible speech in which he stammered and lowered moral even more. A common bitter joke at the time was to remind each other "that the last one should remember to turn off the lights". This was a key factor in the decision to not wait any longer and strike first, before the war is lost without even beginning. This is far removed from any "expansion ambitions".

By the way, the decision to take the Golan Heights (a few days into the war) was made due to the Syrians shelling Israeli Kibuts and towns below with artillery on daily basis for years before that. Israel was keeping restraint all this time in order not to start a full scale war.
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Offline bozon

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« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2008, 02:44:29 AM »
In any case, history is irrelevant. It cannot be changed and there is no such thing as historical justice.

If there was or there wasn't a Palestinian "nation" is irrelevant. There is a group of people who call themselves such TODAY. They do deserve some kind of a solution and not live as so called "refugees", but as citizens. There is a large majority in Israel in support of a Palestinian state. Its borders are pretty much clear for everyone except for the small area in the vicinity of Jerusalem. Not that Israel is acting very smartly, but the Palestinians acting like idiots does not help their cause. I despise those that yell for help but would not help themselves.
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Offline Elfie

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2008, 06:07:14 AM »
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They do deserve some kind of a solution and not live as so called "refugees", but as citizens.


They were offered a solution in 1947 by the UN and rejected it. They have rejected all offers of a solution. They want what they can't have.
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2008, 06:50:55 AM »
You misread me I think.



Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
If a man is walking up to your door with a can of gas and a lit match, do you...

A. Stop him before he gets to your door.

B. Try and put out the fire after your house is ablaze?



A better analogy (IMO of course) would  be :

your neighbour is playing with matches and a can of gas do you :

A: stop him before he leave his property.

B: stop him when he get to you door


what will a judge think of it ?

Offline Rich46yo

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« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2008, 06:57:31 AM »
Very true. The last thing the Israelis wanted in '67 was a 2 front, or even 3 front, war. Another fallacy is that the Syrians gave up easily. The reality is that many Syrian units fought to the death and the Jews won the Golan out of sheer bravery and audacity.

                        In the end they had a 3 front war but offensive action against the Jordanian forces, and the Syrians, didn't start until the Egyptian front was stabilized. It also didn't hurt that the Syrian air force was destroyed on the ground almost as severely as Egypts was.

                     Its a stretch to say the shelling is what prompted the attack on the Golan. First off much of Israels leadership was opposed to the attack because they feared it would be to costly. Lastly the main motivation was to grab the heights before the war ended. It was/is that big a strategic prize.

                     And not just of military value but possession of the Golan gives Israel control of much of the regions water. Which btw is the most important resource IN the region.
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Offline RTHolmes

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« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2008, 09:20:14 AM »
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Originally posted by Nashwan
I don't think anyone is denying Israel's right to exist. Merely disputing whether it's policy towards the Palestinians is either just or even beneficial for Israelis.
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Offline Eagler

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2008, 09:43:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
You misread me I think.



 


A better analogy (IMO of course) would  be :

your neighbour is playing with matches and a can of gas do you :

A: stop him before he leave his property.

B: stop him when he get to you door


what will a judge think of it ?


even better:
replace the can of gas with a few thousand lit Molotov cocktails ..

do you wait until he throws them at you?
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Offline Bronk

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Israel Gaza offensive
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2008, 03:50:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
You misread me I think.



 


A better analogy (IMO of course) would  be :

your neighbour is playing with matches and a can of gas do you :

A: stop him before he leave his property.

B: stop him when he get to you door


what will a judge think of it ?


Straffo They moved troops to the border. They didn't play war games in the middle of their country did they?
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