Author Topic: Video of P63 KingCobra Biggen Hill  (Read 2086 times)

Offline Yeager

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Video of P63 KingCobra Biggen Hill
« on: March 04, 2008, 12:47:20 PM »
Has anyone seen that video of the P63 crash at Biggen hill airshow?

I was amazed at this video as it appeared to show how a aft mounted engine (very similar to P39) appeared to have been a prime factor in the aeroplane stalling out just past the top of a loop and flailing about until the nose got pointed down, well past the point of safe recovery.  The airplane hits the ground with loss of pilot.

I wont link to it here because of the graphic nature of lethal accidents footage, but if you go to youtube and type in "king cobra biggen hill"
you should get right to it.

It serves as a valid reference point, albeit only closely related, to the flight model expectation of our soon to be new companion in the arenas.  Be careful with this beast:

Dont give me a P39,
With an engine thats mounted behind.
It will tumble and roll, and dig a big hole.
Dont give me a P39.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Krusty

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Video of P63 KingCobra Biggen Hill
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2008, 12:51:21 PM »
If you believe some propoganda on it, it's the end-all, be-all of uber fighters.

I've always held the opinion (defended by this and many related refernces) that show the P-39 was an unstable plane.

I hope HTC gets it right, though.

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2008, 03:36:03 PM »
I'm no expert but looking at that film, the pilot entered that loop at way too low airspeed.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 04:38:21 PM by Bronk »
See Rule #4

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2008, 03:53:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
If you believe some propoganda on it, it's the end-all, be-all of uber fighters.

I've always held the opinion (defended by this and many related refernces) that show the P-39 was an unstable plane.

I hope HTC gets it right, though.


Sometimes I just want to scream :)

The 39 wasn't a trainer.  It wasn't something a new pilot just hopped in and went tearing around in without knowing what he was doing.  If you talk to 39 pilots or read what 39 pilots wrote, it was clearly a bird that did more with an experienced pilot at the stick.

Quoting Hugh Dow, a high time 39 pilot with a couple of 109 kills to his credit.  

"The P-39 experienced a mission limiting set back early on when the air staff deleted the requirement for a two-stage supercharger.  As a result it was forever restricted to lower operating range then the Luftwaffe's fighters.  This disadvantage could only be overcome if the opponent chose to give up his ability to make relatively safe diving and climbing attacks from above.  Only the inexperienced or cock-sure were likely to forfiet their supierior altitude and thus speed advantage.  This diving-climbing tactic was apparently exploited by the Me-109 pilots of JG-77 on March 13, 1943 when they intercepted an 81st Group formation of 12 P-39s over Tunisia on a strafing mission and shot down seven.  Probably many fled instead of staying and fighting as pairs.  For we know from our own head to head fight tests with the Me-109 that the P-39 held a slight performance edge on that opponent in both speed and turning radius down at low altitude.  That advantage was used by pilots of the 350th group a year later, on April 6, 1944, over Italy when they too were jumped at low altitude by a larger force of Me-109s and FW-190s, and shot down five of them without a loss to the P-39s."

Edwards Park, a 35th FG P39 pilot talking about flying it:

"It's controls were extremely delicate. The slightest hint of abruptness on the part of the pilot would be rewarded with a high-speed stall, in which the lifting surfaces were  'burbled' and suddenly fail to lift on one side.  Result" a snap roll, which is a violent thing to do when you mean to, and a real buster when you don't.....The only way to make a turn was to think about it.  Think left, and around she'd go, nice as pie.  Think steep turn and she'd rack around so tightly that your eyeballs would sag."

The point being, it's not going to be a novice's bird in AH either.  It won't be a monster for the guy who flies it once in a while.  But like any of the birds, the more someone gets to know it, the more lethal they'll be come with it.

These stupid blanket statements about it good or bad, just drive me up the wall!
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Krusty

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Video of P63 KingCobra Biggen Hill
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2008, 03:57:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
The 39 wasn't a trainer.  It wasn't something a new pilot just hopped in and went tearing around in without knowing what he was doing.  If you talk to 39 pilots or read what 39 pilots wrote, it was clearly a bird that did more with an experienced pilot at the stick.


Oh, I agree. I wasn't saying it'll be terrible, either. I was just saying I'm annoyed all the time I hear these blanket statements that it was super tight turning, super fast accelerating, super fast top speed, super fast climbing (some of these aren't even based in fact). There's a small minority that would have you believe it walked on water, no less. I just hope HTC does it right, not like these descriptions would have you believe.

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2008, 04:03:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Oh, I agree. I wasn't saying it'll be terrible, either. I was just saying I'm annoyed all the time I hear these blanket statements that it was super tight turning, super fast accelerating, super fast top speed, super fast climbing (some of these aren't even based in fact). There's a small minority that would have you believe it walked on water, no less. I just hope HTC does it right, not like these descriptions would have you believe.


But you are talking about the guys in here who don't know anything beyond what they read on Wiki or saw on the History channel or heard someone else say third hand.

Those quotes don't count as I do believe HTC and company looks a bit further then that.  Give em a bit of credit:aok
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Bronk

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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2008, 04:15:40 PM »

1337!!!!111!!!!eleven
:rolleyes:
See Rule #4

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2008, 04:20:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Give em a bit of credit:aok


Well... I normally do, but since the whole F4u/p51/torque thing..... :D

Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Video of P63 KingCobra Biggen Hill
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2008, 04:26:04 PM »
Correct bronk, still sad to see it happen.

My guess is if p39 pilots want to do a full loop they had better have more than 250mph under her wings, ir not more.

That engine in those last seconds in the loop, RIP the tail down.
Gonna be interesting.


Sad tho by the loss of life, and plane.
~383Rd RTC/CH BW/AG~
BaDfaRmA

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Offline Wmaker

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Video of P63 KingCobra Biggen Hill
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2008, 04:53:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk

1337!!!!111!!!!eleven
:rolleyes:


That graph seems to pop up pretty frequently recently. Something that should be mentioned with it is usually forgotten...

From the same book...referring to that graph above:

"The USAAF speed estimates shown for the P-39Q may be optimistic."
Wmaker
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Offline Bronk

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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2008, 04:56:16 PM »
Removed
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Offline angelsandair

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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2008, 04:56:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Sometimes I just want to scream :)

The 39 wasn't a trainer.  It wasn't something a new pilot just hopped in and went tearing around in without knowing what he was doing.  If you talk to 39 pilots or read what 39 pilots wrote, it was clearly a bird that did more with an experienced pilot at the stick.

Quoting Hugh Dow, a high time 39 pilot with a couple of 109 kills to his credit.  

"The P-39 experienced a mission limiting set back early on when the air staff deleted the requirement for a two-stage supercharger.  As a result it was forever restricted to lower operating range then the Luftwaffe's fighters.  This disadvantage could only be overcome if the opponent chose to give up his ability to make relatively safe diving and climbing attacks from above.  Only the inexperienced or cock-sure were likely to forfiet their supierior altitude and thus speed advantage.  This diving-climbing tactic was apparently exploited by the Me-109 pilots of JG-77 on March 13, 1943 when they intercepted an 81st Group formation of 12 P-39s over Tunisia on a strafing mission and shot down seven.  Probably many fled instead of staying and fighting as pairs.  For we know from our own head to head fight tests with the Me-109 that the P-39 held a slight performance edge on that opponent in both speed and turning radius down at low altitude.  That advantage was used by pilots of the 350th group a year later, on April 6, 1944, over Italy when they too were jumped at low altitude by a larger force of Me-109s and FW-190s, and shot down five of them without a loss to the P-39s."

Edwards Park, a 35th FG P39 pilot talking about flying it:

"It's controls were extremely delicate. The slightest hint of abruptness on the part of the pilot would be rewarded with a high-speed stall, in which the lifting surfaces were  'burbled' and suddenly fail to lift on one side.  Result" a snap roll, which is a violent thing to do when you mean to, and a real buster when you don't.....The only way to make a turn was to think about it.  Think left, and around she'd go, nice as pie.  Think steep turn and she'd rack around so tightly that your eyeballs would sag."

The point being, it's not going to be a novice's bird in AH either.  It won't be a monster for the guy who flies it once in a while.  But like any of the birds, the more someone gets to know it, the more lethal they'll be come with it.

These stupid blanket statements about it good or bad, just drive me up the wall!


Yea the #2 allied pilot of WW2 did awesome in the P-39. Just imagine him at the hands of a spit 16 or a La-7 if he ever got one? It would be incredable.
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2008, 05:04:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by angelsandair
Yea the #2 allied pilot of WW2 did awesome in the P-39. Just imagine him at the hands of a spit 16 or a La-7 if he ever got one? It would be incredable.


And then imagine if they had accurate kill claims for him!!!

When the Comrade Commisar says "You come back with 10 kills or you'll be sent to the camps!" you come back with 10 kills, even if you never fired a shot.


When the Commrade Commisar wants to make a martyr for a downtrodden people, he may take every kill the squadron is awarded and give it to the one person that is already in the news.


Yes, he did some things, but I don't put as much stock in his kill listing as I do countries with..... "better reputations" on these things.


(now back to your regularly scheduled thread :O )

Offline Bronk

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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2008, 05:20:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Hyperbole


Fixed
See Rule #4

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2008, 05:26:10 PM »
Don't troll. It's unbecoming.


P.S. You're hanging out with Storch too much!