MK108 30mm hits to the engine

[moot]

No one said anything about luftwaffe Guppy.  There's no conspiracy, it's a real trend that sometimes happen, and given that it's only sometimes, I think it's a net issue.  I mean.. Look at the screenshot from Motherland's film.  How does that happen?
What's still odd, if we assume it's not a net problem, is planes taking less than immediate engine damage 30 times in a row, then 30 times in a row immediately losing the engine like they used to.  That's a really odd statistical distribution.

[BaldEagl]

I flew a 163 last night (first time with the 30mm's for a while) and took down 3 AR234's firing 3-4 round bursts.  Of course I missed a few times as he was manouvering but the actual hits tore him apart.  I will add that on my first pass I hit the engine on one of the 234's and smoked it but I killed another on the same pass.

Again, I'm not seeing any issue with the 30mm.

[Anaxogoras]

I rope-a-doped a 190A-5 in the 109K last night, shot his engine from 100 yards out head-on with the MK 108 (not firing mg's), and he dove down to his base with a smoking engine and landed.

Moot, your explanation is interesting, but I don't understand how the net would cause a confirmed hit by a 30mm shell to be less powerful.  Packet loss would make more sense if I were firing a gun with a high rate of fire, because then we can say that only some of the hits were communicated to the server and back.

With the exception of shooting the wheel off a stuka or other peripheral parts, 1 30mm hit should kill a fighter, whether the hit is to the fuselage, engine or tail assembly.  It's like shooting a bird with an elephant gun.

[moot]

Originally posted by Anaxogoras
Moot, your explanation is interesting, but I don't understand how the net would cause a confirmed hit by a 30mm shell to be less powerful.  

It doesn't, and I'd like to know what the missing or incorrect piece of the puzzle is.

[Sketch]

Okay Moot... here is a question for you (with no a-hole comments to you from me like before in the pony post)

I have been trying out the K4 as of late and like it a lot.  Now, it has the 30mm Mk 108 cannon.  The Me262 has this as well... now here is my issue.  I fly around off-line and shoot at the drones and struggle to hit anything no matter what I set my gun at.  In the 262 I sit there at 600-800 out popping off guys left and right.  Is it just different from the firing position being in the spinner compared to the side/nose of the 262's.  I settle up on them and have to get damn near right on them at like 200 before I hit them...  I also struggle as well with the MG's in the K4... maybe I just not use to the German Iron!

BTW:  Which 30mm is in the 163 in the game?  Is it the Mk108 as well...

[moot]

It sounds like you aren't used to them.. The differences between the two that I can think of:  
+ The 262 has 4 times as many bullets flying forward as the 109.  30mm shots with just one gun (sometimes even with the 262's quad-30mm) can be pretty flaky: with a small enough target (either small profile or very fast relative motion) your rounds may just fly right around the target due to ROF and dispersion, even if you are pointing the nose and pulling the trigger at the right place and time!
+ The 262 flies a lot faster which makes the trajectory flatter:  Bullets don't have as much time to drop.
+ The position of the guns in the 109 and 262 nose shouldn't make much difference at all.. There should be more difference from..
+ Convergence setting, it adjusts the vertical aim of the guns as well as the latteral angle.  I don't have any rule of thumb for that - personaly I've had them at 350 in the 262 and probably 300-350 in the 109s.  The speed of the 262 is enough that it can be considered separately from the 109, in terms of aiming.
+ And then there's just the pilot's perspective.. A friend of mine keeps saying "I can't shoot in the spits", even though he's about a good shot as I am in any other circumstances.

And yeah, all 30mm we have are the same MK108.  Light and short barreled gun, slow rate of fire..  The only other german 30mm we might get is the MK103, which is slower still, but has a longer barrel and a much bigger cartridge.. The closest analog we have is the Il2's 23mm. The MK103 would fire slower but have at least as good a trajectory, and would be even more lethal than our MK108 round.  Very potent stuff.

[hubsonfire]

I no longer have the readme's in my HTC folder for the last few patches and updates, but wasn't there a change to weapons in one of the patches in the last year? I'm fairly certain they changed the GV modelling with regards to weapons and penetration, but were any of the weapons on planes also adjusted?

I think a lot of what happens that seems odd is only perception, however I've had nights where I could kill anything with a single 30mm hit, and others where I've hit the same plane 5 or 6 times, sometimes close enough to kill myself with the blast, without downing the other plane.

Lag could only effect when the other guys takes the damage, not how much of it he takes, so I wonder if there is actually some component that's been changed, or if it really is just the luck of where the round hits that results in no damage, or just an oil leak instead of a catastrophic result.

[CAP1]

Originally posted by Anaxogoras
I rope-a-doped a 190A-5 in the 109K last night, shot his engine from 100 yards out head-on with the MK 108 (not firing mg's), and he dove down to his base with a smoking engine and landed.

Moot, your explanation is interesting, but I don't understand how the net would cause a confirmed hit by a 30mm shell to be less powerful.  Packet loss would make more sense if I were firing a gun with a high rate of fire, because then we can say that only some of the hits were communicated to the server and back.

With the exception of shooting the wheel off a stuka or other peripheral parts, 1 30mm hit should kill a fighter, whether the hit is to the fuselage, engine or tail assembly.  It's like shooting a bird with an elephant gun.

that'd depend.....are they explosive rounds? or are they just really big bullets? if not explosive, they coudl in theory simply travel through the aircraft and hit nothing vital/......as for the engine hits...........don't forget thagt there's most likeley a big v-12 up there........it could possibly take the brunt of a hit from a 30mm round.......even if it does kill the engine it might protect the pilot and the rest oif the plane

[Jarski]

When the Grosse Shlag scenario was starting we got multiple reports of ineffective 30mm fire. I personally have couple of video clips where I got 2 hits into no. 1. engine of B-17 from HO position. I watched the clip at slow motion and I was firing the cannon only.

No damage at all.. What do you think that kind of results do to game experience?

But in offline the cannon seems to be more effective.

So basically I think the problem is somewhere in the net code which tells opponent plane how much damage he has received. A single note of 30mm hit may be lost along the way but 30 hits of 20mm is much harder to lose--> at least some damage will get through via internet.

I think this issue should be looked into. Of course the whole damage modelling needs overhauling IMO because its plain ancient... you´re .0001 point short of damage losing a wing and still you can pull G´s like it was a brand new thing.

[Krusty]

A couple of days ago I was in a town defending as it was stolen (I got there in time to see it taken). So we're trying to keep the town down and get troops in, so I, in my Osty, am defending. A large runway runs just over the town. On once occasion, I land no less than 7 hits on a 120mph B-25H that's flying right over me at 1000 feet.

*7* hits... I hit his nose/belly 3-4 times and his inboard left wing 2x (any one of which should have taken him apart) and my 7th only set him on fire.

A lancaster coming in at higher alts and level bombing from about 3k or so took 5+ hits, most in the same wing. Nothing came off until the last hit, when he "only" lost a wingtip.


Something's seriously up with heavy cannon rounds lately.

[Hoffman]

I noticed my 30MM hits to the engine aren't super killers either... very frustrating... however I do think in several cases its the engine absorbing the damage.  As everytime I hit anywhere else its almost always vital.
EX:
http://www.mediafire.com/?y1aztx23gn1

As opposed to:

http://www.mediafire.com/?y1btfseie1x

Or:
http://www.mediafire.com/?m9jm9ydb4xi



But on the rare occasion that's I've tangled with bombers I noticed my 30MM's don't hurt them all that much.  It may be I'm just way out of practice since DGS, especially against B-17's (Very Rugged) or Lancs (Armored).  Since there is alot to hit that isn't exactly vital.  The size of the bombers may well be protecting them from people just trying to hit the bomber not necessarily the wing root, or the engine.

I've also noticed sometimes in an osty hitting good head-on shots against fighters and dealing little-no damage.  Extremely frustrating to nail a fighter in the nose and then have him knock out your turret.  (Stupid big engine sucking up all the shrapnel.)

[moot]

One hit killing the engine isn't new, it's always been that way.  It hadn't always been so that engines keep running for a while after a tater hits.. not seldom for almost as long as a regular oil leak.  Anywhere else and it's a vital part that falls off, or in a few cases nothing happens.

I agree, bombers IMO are big enough.  They're large enough that you can land a tater almost anywhere and no break something off.  The detonation will just bend the skin into a big crater, or something functionaly benign like that.  Two taters almost anywhere in the same spot should break something vital.  That shot Motherland shows is not one of those cases, though...

I dunno if ostie hits to the engine of a fighter should be lethal everytime.. I've gotten a kill on the pilot from it, just about everytime.