Fw190 weight corrections discussion

[Krusty]

I was looking for a reference for the ETC 501, but I'd like to cover a couple of weight discrepencies with the 190 series in-game.

The ETC 501 rack on 190s.

I must have not been able to find a weight for that and then forgot about it.  I can fix that.  500 lbs sound about right?

So, if we can find a weight, Pyro will include, I believe. I've been looking many places for an online reference, and I can't find much.... BUT.... I did find a reference to an ETC 501 on a 109G. It looks to be from our friend Kurfurst. Here's the link:
http://kurfurst.allaboutwarfare.com/Performance_tests/109G1-6_datasheet/109G_perftable_EN.html

Here's the reference (regarding drag and performance, but it mentions weight):
"From 1 x 250 kg bomb, fitted under the fuselage on a ETC 501 IX b bombrack (inc. loss from bomb rack):
- 40 kph loss in speed, additonal 280 kg for take off weight."

280kg total and the bomb is about 250kg. So that would be a 30kg weight for the rack itself. That's about 66lbs, which is somewhat believable I guess

The DT in AH weighs just about that much now, perhaps the DT weighs almost nothing but this weight should be on the rack itself??

Mind you that's on a 109, but it's the same designation, and it performs similar functions as the 190 centerline rack. We're not asking for drag/speed numbers, just sheer physical weight. It's not too much of a stretch to conclude that the 190 centerline rack weighs about as much as the 109's centerline rack. Also, does anybody know if this weight is currently modeled on 109 centerline racks?

Pyro, any objections to modeling the ETC 501 as 30kg? That would at least help out with the CoG on the A-8.


Other weight issues

To summarize, here're the in-game weights.

**************************************************
190A-8 2 guns 100% (169gal): 9360 lbs
190A-8 2 guns noaux% (139gal): 9178 lbs
190A-8 2 guns 0%: 8346 lbs
190A-8 2 guns (noMGAmmo) 100%: 9189 lbs
190A-8 2 guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 9118 lbs

190A-8 4 guns 100% (169gal): 9682 lbs
190A-8 4 guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 9304 lbs

190A-8 30mm guns 100% (169gal): 9891 lbs
190A-8 30mm guns (no20mmAmmo) 100%: 9506 lbs

190A-8 2 guns DT (248gal): 9900 lbs
190A-8 2 guns DT dry (169gal): 9426 lbs
190A-8 2 guns DT dropped (rack on): 9360 lbs

169 gal = 1,014 lbs
1 gal = 6 lbs
30 gal aux tank = 180 lbs
79 gal DT = 474 lbs
950 13mm rounds = 171 lbs
500 20mm rounds = 242 lbs
280 20mm rounds = 136 lbs
110 30mm rounds = 143 lbs
1x 13mm round = 0.18 lbs
1x 20mm round = .485/.486 lbs (in/out)
1x 30mm round = 1.3 lbs
2x MG151/20 plus 280 rounds = 322 lbs
each MG151/20 outboard = 93 lbs
2x 30mm plus 110 rounds = 531 lbs
each 30mm = 194 lbs
More weight than A-5 (not counting aux)= 596 lbs
Total DT weight = 540 lbs
Empty DT weight = 66 lbs
ETC rack weight = 0 lbs?

[snip]

... here's the A-8 outboard gun option weights.

2x MG151/20 plus 280 rounds = 322 lbs
each MG151/20 outboard = 93 lbs

2x 30mm plus 110 rounds = 531 lbs
each 30mm = 194 lbs

The outboard guns on 190s.


In-game they are currently:
2x MG151/20 plus 280 rounds = 322 lbs
each MG151/20 outboard = 93 lbs
2x 30mm plus 110 rounds = 531 lbs
each 30mm = 194 lbs

ammunition for 2 MG131 - 77kg/170lb for 950rds
ammunition for 2 MG151 - 110kg/243lb for 500rds
ammunition for 2 MG151 - 64kg/141lb for 280 rds

removal of 2 MG151 and ammo - 389lb

ref. 190A-8 Handbook, Tech Description #284

The 30mm MK108 weighed 58kg or 128lb.

It would seem the outboard MG151/20s weight too little, and the outboard Mk108s weigh way to much. Since he's quoting the 190a8 handbook and tells you what part, would it be possible to verify this and update these weights in-game?


Overall weight on the 190A-8.

There seems to be a problem with the 190A-8's total weight.

Hi,

the 190A8 seems to be a bit to heavy, no??

Almost 4400kg, while the default 190A8 get listed with 4300kg.

4300kg are already with the aux tank, while the AH 190A8 seems to weight 4300kg without aux tank, while the Aux tank only did keep 55kg.

The 190A8R2 (2 x MK108) almost have 4490kg in AH, while its listed with 4350kg, also inclusive the aux tank. Sounds more like a 190A8R8 in AH with a lot of additional plating.
The german datas base on a fuel weight of 0,7375kg/Liter (6,15lb/gal)
So the 4300kg include already 12kg more weight.

It would appear that the 190D-9 in-game matches listed weights. However, the A-8 should weigh the same.

Here are two charts that list the 190a8 weight with 4x20mm and one also compares the 190d-9.

http://www.vermin.net/fw190/translated-fwchart.jpg
http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-1.jpg

I'm not itemizing it down, because I don't have the info, but basically the 190d9 was a bit heavier, but had less guns, didn't have the heavy aux tank, so it all balanced out. The A-8 was lighter, but had the aux, the outboard guns and all their ammo.

Only, in-game, we have a 190a8 that's 237lbs heavier, with a full aux tank. These should be almost the same.

This weight, coupled with the 50% over-weight of the 30mm (the most common weapon choice) could mean the 190a8 is overweight.

Pyro, any comments on the total weight of the A-8 in relation to the charts linked here?

[Bodhi]

did you give up on the torque idea and decide to move onto something else?

 

[Krusty]

No. There is more than 1 pressing issue being discussed about this game at any given time.


EDIT: P.S. I know you have some USN stuff, but do you have any references on the ETC 501 weight?

[Bodhi]

I could probably have one weighed if I felt so inclined.

[Krusty]

Wow, you can get access to one?

I was debating contacting the Smithsonian to see if they ever weighed theirs, but I doubt I'd get a response back in 10 years unless I donated a new wing to their museum....

[Bodhi]

I know some guys that are doing a restoration and they have the racks.  It all depends whether it is restored or not, in storage, or in process; ie. in pieces.  The next issue is, that it really is not that important in the overall scheme of things that I bother than with such a trivial request.  I do not like it when people do it to me, so I am loathe to actually ask them to do it.

As for the Smithsonian, they simply will not honor that type of request as it is for the benefit of a commercial venture.  They might do it for a fee... roughly $200 / hr. the last time they did anything for us.

[Kweassa]

 If you could weigh it and send the info to HTC, I imagine it'd be an invalulable piece of information, Bodhi.

 

[Bodhi]

If you could weigh it and send the info to HTC, I imagine it'd be an invalulable piece of information, Bodhi.

 

I agree, the problem would not be me weighing it.  It is asking someone to do it for me and what it is for... a game. 

[MiloMorai]

The ETC 501 rack on 190s.

So that would be a 30kg weight for the rack itself. That's about 66lbs, which is somewhat believable I guess

The ETC 501 weighs 60.7kg(133.8lb).

[Krusty]

Milo, thank you for chiming in, but I'm wondering why you haven't come forward sooner?!?   

Can you back this up via document or something that Pyro would accepts as a good source? (please say yes!!)

[moot]

The 152 had a special rack made for it, by Tank.  So unless anyone has info on that one.. It'll get the same 0lbs "default" weight as 190s have now...

[Krusty]

My main beef with the A-8 is that it moves the CoG forward, but in-game weighs nothing, so we don't gain any benefits from it.

On the 152, there's so many strange FM issues I don't know if moving the CoG forward was an issue or not.

P.S. I think the 152 used the same ETC as the 190D series. Would be a simple matter of checking 190D weight references then applying to the 152.

That's another issue entirely, though 

[MiloMorai]

Milo, thank you for chiming in, but I'm wondering why you haven't come forward sooner?!?   

Can you back this up via document or something that Pyro would accepts as a good source? (please say yes!!)

Because I have had that flu that is going the rounds.

For a reference, use Tech Description No. 284.

[moot]

I'm pretty sure I read the regular ETC rack gave the 152s too many aero problems, so Tank drew a new one.

[TUXC]

Looking through Hermann's book for info in the Ta152 drop tank, on p. 72 it states, "A 300-liter drop tank which was attached to an aerodynamically faired external mount, the so-called 'Ta 152 Tank Carriage' by grommets. Fuel transfer by supercharger air." On p. 91 and 92 there are pictures of a 152 equipped with a drop tank. The fairing is so low profile that it is impossible to make out behind the undercarriage doors. It almost appears as if the tank is attached directly to the fuselage. Certainly this is not the same rack as the 190A or 190D used and would be much lighter and cause much less drag.