Fw190 weight corrections discussion

[hubsonfire]

I personally don't have access to check the original, but he's not trying to hide anything

Ignoring this rather telling remark, the point is that there isn't any reason to make a translation look like an original, unless you're trying to fool someone with it.

[Krusty]

I guess we disagree there Hubs.

I've seen many translations online, most of them widely accepted as legit. They use the same formatting, and the same style, the same forms.


It's very common.

[Bodhi]

I guess we disagree there Hubs.

I've seen many translations online, most of them widely accepted as legit. They use the same formatting, and the same style, the same forms.


It's very common.

What makes you positive that those translations aren't changed as well?

Translating a document to English is fine.
Translating a document and trying to pass it off as an original is something else entirely. 

As far as I am concerned, that document is suspect.

[hubsonfire]

As far as "widely accepted" goes, if HTC doesn't accept fabricated documents, whether or not others choose to accept them as accurate  means nothing. Waffle noted that the document is knock-off, which leads me to think they are looking for the real article, not just some pretty artwork that is purported to contain the correct data. It may well contain accurate data, but the fact that it is not a genuine document, although intended to look like one, leaves me suspicious as well.

[Krusty]

So you're saying HTC has learned fluent war-time German, Italian, Russian, and will only accept original primary documentation in the native tongue?

As for Waffle's comment, the  leads me to believe he's pointing out something he finds amusing. If he finds it suspect, I'd presume he'd come out and say it. I won't put words in his mouth, however.

[hubsonfire]

I don't presume that simply because HT can't type, that he can't read or speak a foreign language. You don't even need to be fluent to translate the occasional word or phrase, and there are many folks in good standing in the community who do speak those languages, so I see nothing that could prevent HTC from getting accurate translations of documents.

However, I do think it's ridiculous to assume that simply because someone put some effort into producing a fake document, that it is completely accurate. Why not simply post the original, and a translation, so that any inconsistencies can be pointed out and discussed by those who speak the languages in which they were originally written?

[BlauK]

Why has the translation become such an issue. Some people are simply more visually oriented and e.g. want to do the whole document just for the sake of style. If one wanted to fake a document, it could be done with the original language just as well as with translated language. People can keep on assuming and suspecting or believing whatever they want to with any linked or posted pic

btw. My thoughts must be fake, since they have been translated to english while typing 

[Bodhi]

So you're saying HTC has learned fluent war-time German, Italian, Russian, and will only accept original primary documentation in the native tongue?

As for Waffle's comment, the  leads me to believe he's pointing out something he finds amusing. If he finds it suspect, I'd presume he'd come out and say it. I won't put words in his mouth, however.

How hard is it to pick up a German to English dictionary, then start translating the actual words.  The numbers in Italian and German are universal.  No argument there.  Technical translations are a lot easier than say a poem or book.

I'll give you an example of what we did when we worked on the FW190F8 in the past.  We simply used either German / English dictionaries and we also paid for some things to be translated by a translation service.  Fairly simple.

[Guppy35]

Just out of curiousity.  What do you think the addtional weight will do to the 190A8?

It appears that folks get a mindset that a certain plane isn't flying the way they believe it should so they go looking for someway to explain away what they believe.

They added 600 pounds to my 38G.  I really can't tell the difference, and I seem to still be having fun in it.  What am I doing wrong?  I should be screaming bloody murder or murdr as the case may be

[moot]

Yeah no kidding... They added only a fraction of that to the 262 and it went from ok stall fighter to having as much inertia as a wrecking ball.

The A8 is already as bad as a P47 with lift and control surfaces removed, but 150 lbs or so won't make too big a difference.  200lbs of ammo removed from the 152 is helpful but only if you know how to use it..  It won't be all that bad for the A8, considering it's a center-line ballast and also placed relatively forward.

[Krusty]

The weight move the center of gravity forward, according to several different books I've read over many years. Somebody even commented (I don't recall whom) that he'd never seen photos of a 190a8 without the rack, even if the rack was empty. The rack was carried even when nothing was on it most times.

I'd even love to have it modeled on all the time (like the P-51 pylons) as long as it shifts the CoG forward to a more stable position.

I can feel it in the 38G, and I don't fly it as much as other planes. The G is noticably heavier and sluggish compared to what it used to be.


However, if HTC uses the common weight of the 190A8, it would shave 230-some pounds off the flying weight, not counting the ETC weight.

Two separate issues, I know. I'd be happy with just the ETC weight. If they adjust the overall weight that's icing on the cake.

[TUXC]

The weight move the center of gravity forward, according to several different books I've read over many years. Somebody even commented (I don't recall whom) that he'd never seen photos of a 190a8 without the rack, even if the rack was empty. The rack was carried even when nothing was on it most times.

I'd even love to have it modeled on all the time (like the P-51 pylons) as long as it shifts the CoG forward to a more stable position.

I can feel it in the 38G, and I don't fly it as much as other planes. The G is noticably heavier and sluggish compared to what it used to be.


However, if HTC uses the common weight of the 190A8, it would shave 230-some pounds off the flying weight, not counting the ETC weight.

Two separate issues, I know. I'd be happy with just the ETC weight. If they adjust the overall weight that's icing on the cake.

The thing is the 190A-8 doesn't really seem unstable at all. It just feels heavy and like the other 190s we have has a nasty tendency to stall violently at low speeds with the slightest control inputs.

What would be really nice is the option to remove the aft (aka aux) tank from the 190A-8 and F-8 when you don't need the extra fuel, and the aft mounted GM-1 tank from the Ta-152H (which was done in service to alleviate CoG issues) when you don't plan on flying over 37000ft.

[Krusty]

Tuxc, while it's there in the other 190s, I think it's more pronounced in the A8. It's harder to ride the edge, harder to dogfight in a 190a8 as compared to a 190a5. I've fought La7s in 'em, yak9us in 'em, many various planes, and I'd find myself dropping a wing well before the a5 would. Even with just the inboard guns package, I mean.

[MiloMorai]

More fabrications.

[TUXC]

Tuxc, while it's there in the other 190s, I think it's more pronounced in the A8. It's harder to ride the edge, harder to dogfight in a 190a8 as compared to a 190a5. I've fought La7s in 'em, yak9us in 'em, many various planes, and I'd find myself dropping a wing well before the a5 would. Even with just the inboard guns package, I mean.

I do agree with you that the A-8 is harder to dogfight with than the A-5, but I feel like the "dropping a wing" is more due to the heavier weight of the A-8 than any center of gravity issues. The A-8 with just inboard guns gains weight over the A-5 AFAIK to 3 reasons: heavier cowl guns, more armor, and the aft fuel tank. The Ta-152 will outmaneuver the other 190s when light, but is inherently less stable, so I think stability and maneuverability are not completely related in this case.