When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?

[Lumpy]

We can look at all of the definitions we want and by English definitions those guys are civilians. However if we look outside the box and see what they call themselves, look at their actions and see what they do, they are soldiers of the Jihad. We need new definitions for these guys, new classifications under International Law.

I do not consider them civilians in any sense of the term.

Hah, yes you need to "look outside the box" (or more precisely outside the law) to find justification for what America is doing. People like "these guys" have existed since the dawn of time, but no other civilized country seems to have any problems dealing with terrorists within the framework of civil law. Even the Russians manage to drag the terrorists to court, and even after the terrorists murdered their children. Why do we need new definitions for criminals all of a sudden? How hard can it be to convict mass murderers in a court of law? You people even have the death penalty, so what's the problem?

How is an AQ planner/leader any different from Charles Manson who planned all those murders? He called himself a child of Satan, a child of God; should the authorities have taken his self proclaimed divinity into account when dealing with him? If not, why should we care what AQ members call themselves?

Yeah, you need to look outside the box alright. Far outside.

[Lumpy]

Lumpy,

Which advocacy organisation are you shilling for? Your responses read like advocacy responses on other boards. The kind from volunteers and interns who's job is to do searches for key words on blogs so they can tie up opponents of their groups positions in hopes of shutting down unfavorable discorce.

I don't work for any organization. And if you haven't noticed I am the person providing the "unfavorable discorce[sic]" in this thread.

So ... what advocacy organization do you work for?

[Yeager]

No reasonable person would advocate torture either. It doesn't matter who or what he is, still wrong.

I am reasonable and I advocate the use of tickling.  Is that torture?

[bustr]

Hah, yes you need to "look outside the box" (or more precisely outside the law) to find justification for what America is doing. People like "these guys" have existed since the dawn of time, but no other civilized country seems to have any problems dealing with terrorists within the framework of civil law. Even the Russians manage to drag the terrorists to court, and even after the terrorists murdered their children. Why do we need new definitions for criminals all of a sudden? How hard can it be to convict mass murderers in a court of law? You people even have the death penalty, so what's the problem?

How is an AQ planner/leader any different from Charles Manson who planned all those murders? He called himself a child of Satan, a child of God; should the authorities have taken his self proclaimed divinity into account when dealing with him? If not, why should we care what AQ members call themselves?

Yeah, you need to look outside the box alright. Far outside.

Lumpy you not from the U.S. then?

I read on many blogs about this and other issues. Since these issues have social\political outcomes often at the voting booth, shills show up from groups to try and influence perception and in some cases to disrupt discorce by taking over the thread. They have a tendancy to sound eriudite and well educated and reasonable like yourself until the thread is so far in that it's hijackable. These groups have staffers whos job are to search blogs and hijack threads. Torture and the 2nd amendmant are current big issues. And yes more often these are democrat\liberal\progressive leaning organisations here in the U.S. 

[Arlo]

anyone who refers to KSM as a civilian is someone who needs to be monitored, imo.

Spoken like a true communist or fascist. Do we get a Godwin whine amen?

[AWMac]

Everytime I hear of this "waterboarding" BS I always hear in the background Bill Cosby's voice doing that "Noah, How long can you tread water?"

Then I LMAO!

The dipchits can decapitate, stone to death or blow themselves and those around up and you whine about a lil water up the nose?

I say use a dam fire hose during waterboarding peel some faces back.

Mac

[NUKE]

Spoken like a true communist or fascist. Do we get a Godwin whine amen?

How many times do you call people fascists? Give it a rest.

[Rich46yo]

                                  Good God your using the Russians as examples of civil Law? Hey I got an Idea, type "chechnya atrocities" into a search engine and see what bounces back. And the terrorists they captured after Belsan? Can you imagine what medicine they caught from the Russian military Police afterwards? I bet they were on their knees begging to be drowned by Americans.

Hah, yes you need to "look outside the box" (or more precisely outside the law) to find justification for what America is doing. People like "these guys" have existed since the dawn of time, but no other civilized country seems to have any problems dealing with terrorists within the framework of civil law. Even the Russians manage to drag the terrorists to court, and even after the terrorists murdered their children. Why do we need new definitions for criminals all of a sudden? How hard can it be to convict mass murderers in a court of law? You people even have the death penalty, so what's the problem?

How is an AQ planner/leader any different from Charles Manson who planned all those murders? He called himself a child of Satan, a child of God; should the authorities have taken his self proclaimed divinity into account when dealing with him? If not, why should we care what AQ members call themselves?

Yeah, you need to look outside the box alright. Far outside.

[Lumpy]

Lumpy you not from the U.S. then?

I read on many blogs about this and other issues. Since these issues have social\political outcomes often at the voting booth, shills show up from groups to try and influence perception and in some cases to disrupt discorce by taking over the thread. They have a tendancy to sound eriudite and well educated and reasonable like yourself until the thread is so far in that it's hijackable. These groups have staffers whos job are to search blogs and hijack threads. Torture and the 2nd amendmant are current big issues. And yes more often these are democrat\liberal\progressive leaning organisations here in the U.S. 

I have tried to avoid this since I don't want to be put in the proverbial box with a label on it, but that was a dead giveaway I guess. Yes, I'm not American. Do you think these "shills" would care to visit our little corner of the internet, a WWII flightsim board? In any case, thank you for your compliments on how I "sound".

[Elfie]

Hah, yes you need to "look outside the box" (or more precisely outside the law) to find justification for what America is doing. People like "these guys" have existed since the dawn of time, but no other civilized country seems to have any problems dealing with terrorists within the framework of civil law. Even the Russians manage to drag the terrorists to court, and even after the terrorists murdered their children. Why do we need new definitions for criminals all of a sudden? How hard can it be to convict mass murderers in a court of law? You people even have the death penalty, so what's the problem?

How is an AQ planner/leader any different from Charles Manson who planned all those murders? He called himself a child of Satan, a child of God; should the authorities have taken his self proclaimed divinity into account when dealing with him? If not, why should we care what AQ members call themselves?

Yeah, you need to look outside the box alright. Far outside.

At no point have I advocated the use of torture. The rest of that.....well.....who knows where you came up with that. I'm a reasonable person and I don't believe for one second that the Russians treated their terrorist prisoners very well.

[Lumpy]

                                  Good God your using the Russians as examples of civil Law? Hey I got an Idea, type "chechnya atrocities" into a search engine and see what bounces back. And the terrorists they captured after Belsan? Can you imagine what medicine they caught from the Russian military Police afterwards? I bet they were on their knees begging to be drowned by Americans.

The sole surviving terrorist, Nur-Pashi Kulayev, got his day in court. Which is more than he would have got in America.

In May 2005, Kulayev was a defendant in a court in the republic of North Ossetia. He was charged with murder, terrorism, kidnapping, and other crimes and pleaded guilty on seven of the counts. Ten days later, on May 26, 2005, he was sentenced to life in prison; no appeal was filed by either the defendant or prosecutor.

He partook in a terrorist act that killed more than 380 Russians including 156 children and wounded more than 780 people ... and they didn't even kill him for it.

[NUKE]

The sole surviving terrorist, Nur-Pashi Kulayev, got his day in court. Which is more than he would have got in America.

In May 2005, Kulayev was a defendant in a court in the republic of North Ossetia. He was charged with murder, terrorism, kidnapping, and other crimes and pleaded guilty on seven of the counts. Ten days later, on May 26, 2005, he was sentenced to life in prison; no appeal was filed by either the defendant or prosecutor.

He partook in a terrorist act that killed more than 380 Russians including 156 children and wounded more than 780 people ... and they didn't even kill him for it.

Timothy McVeigh blew up a federal building in Oklahoma killing 168 people, women and children included. He got a fair trial ....his "day in court"

[Lumpy]

Timothy McVeigh blew up a federal building in Oklahoma killing 168 people, women and children included. He got a fair trial ....his "day in court"

Sure, but he was an American citizen, not a foreign terrorist like Kulayev who was Chechen. Double standards and all... McVeigh wasn't even charged with terrorism.

[Elfie]

Timothy McVeigh blew up a federal building in Oklahoma killing 168 people, women and children included. He got a fair trial ....his "day in court"

Timothy McVeigh will never have the chance to escape and kill again......can't say the same for Mr. Kulayev.

[john9001]

It seems you don't understand what civilian means. Unfortunately not surprising.

you don't understand what war means. Unfortunately not surprising.