Author Topic: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?  (Read 3951 times)

Offline AKIron

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #180 on: March 12, 2008, 09:57:51 AM »
I suppose it'll always be easy for some to condemn those who provide for their liberty while sitting in the comfort and safety also provided by those they vilify. I'd like to blame it on modern education but it's probably been the same throughout the ages.
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #181 on: March 12, 2008, 10:56:58 AM »
I suppose it'll always be easy for some to condemn those who provide for their liberty while sitting in the comfort and safety also provided by those they vilify. I'd like to blame it on modern education but it's probably been the same throughout the ages.




"Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and curse the Marines; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives.
You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use then as the backbone of a life trying to defend something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."

;)
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #182 on: March 12, 2008, 11:14:56 AM »

                             Yeah Ill bet that Russian court was like an old Perry Mason episode. :lol

                             Hey, did they read em Miranda?  :lol

                             Let me guess. Russia has a 100% conviction rate for terrorism?  :lol



Heh... kinda funny to compare Beslan's murderers handling in russia to detainees US is keeping in Guantanamo:
Russians have already convicted the terrorists but US... well:

About 800 detainees have been kept in Gitmo, of those 485 have been released (some after years of imprisonment) without charges.
3 has been charged and 1 (that's one) has been convicted.

Is there any possibilities to fk up human rights worse than that? Heck even Russians have handled the situation better than US and knowing that country it's pretty amazing. OR perhaps it's amazing how badly US have taken care of that issue.

"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline Lumpy

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #183 on: March 12, 2008, 11:39:56 AM »
You might be surprised...

"Kulayev's trial began in Vladikavkaz on May 1, 2005, with prosecutors General Nikolai Shepel and Maria Semisynova seeking life imprisonment on charges of terrorism, murder and hostage-taking on behalf of 1343 plaintiffs. The trial judge was Tamerlan Aguzarov, and Kulayev was defended by Umar Sikoyev and Albert Pliyev, the latter of which had only practised law for 2 weeks prior to being appointed by the state.

His defence laid in the claim that he was one of the recruited Chechens who were told they would be attacking a military checkpoint, and had no foreknowledge their target was the Beslan school; he was reportedly among several of the militants who argued in favour of capturing the local Beslan police station instead.

While no witnesses have claimed he shot any of the victims, several have testified that he ran around the gymnasium shouting curses and threatening to shoot various hostages with his assault rifle; Kulayev testifies that he was only given the firearm to carry because his leaders didn't want any of their weapons left lying around where hostages could seize them.

Nur-Pashi has testified that "Polkovnik" smashed his cell phone in rage, stating that Russian forces were unwilling to negotiate, and also killed three of the militants, including the two female suicide bombers who had objected to the scholastic target by detonating one of their bombs. Nur-Pashi was supposed to be shot himself, by his brother Hanpashi on orders from "Polkovnik", but Hanpashi refused. Nur-Pashi said the final bloodbath started when Russian snipers killed two hostage-takers who were carrying detonators for the explosives strung around the gymnasium.

His long hair was found unsettling by several of the plaintiffs on the opening day of the trial, and was shaved the following day. Surprisingly, a group of victims' families called Mothers of Beslan led by Susanna Dudiyeva, has shown sympathy for Kulayev, promising to seek an appeal on his behalf given his honesty and cooperation during the trial; one went so far as to pledge to send any compensation money she received to Kulayev's children, though there is otherwise no mention of his having children. The Sydney Morning Herald has been criticized, however, for titling Kulayev the "Timid Guerilla" and referring to him as "more sheepish than sinister." [3]

On September 29, 2005, the Mothers of Beslan called for the chief prosecutor Nikolai Shepel to be replaced for incompetence and claims of merely acting out a scripted prosecution without calling high-ranking Russian officials to testify. On October 4, 2005, the Supreme Court of North Ossetia announced that Shepel would not be replaced, in a disputed ruling. [4] About a month later, the Mothers of Beslan spawned a new group dubbed the Voice of Beslan, which was considered more radical than the former, and courted many of the husbands. [5]

On December 16, 2005, Valery Andreyev, chief of the North Ossetian Federal Security Service (FSB) at the time of the hostage-taking, testified that he had personally given the order to overrun the school during the siege. Four days later it was announced that Alexander Dzasokhov, the former leader of North Ossetia, would testify at Kulayev's trial. His presence was demanded by the Mothers of Beslan.

On February 16, 2006, the trial concluded, pending a verdict due July 1. The Mothers of Beslan reportedly requested the death penalty for Kulayev while the Voice of Beslan lobbied against it. The reading of the verdict began on May 16, 2006, [6] and Kelayev was sentenced to life imprisonment."




Kulayev in court.




The whole trial was broadcast in Russia. Would they do that in America? ... oh, that's right the suspects won't even get a trial.



One of the child hostages testifying.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline bustr

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #184 on: March 12, 2008, 11:49:02 AM »
Lumpy,

I have never thought about this, but would you know?

Did Russia as the Old Soviet Union have the death penalty? If it did, has that been changed with the New Russia?
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Lumpy

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #185 on: March 12, 2008, 11:52:14 AM »
I believe the Russian's still have the death penalty. At least they did have it during Kulayev's trial three years ago.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Yeager

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #186 on: March 12, 2008, 12:33:30 PM »
I am not at all familiar with the russian trial.  Is the accused russian?  Was he found guilty of murdering children?  women?  I know nothing about it and as far as Im concerned its an internal russian problem.

As far as guitmo goes my opinion is that the islamic fanatic terror problem is a unique problem in our history and needs to be dealt with.  Guitmo at first glance appears to be a unique way of dealing with a unique problem.  First glance works for me.  Most of the people who complain about the Git are people whos opinions I tend to despise to begin with anyway so I pay them no heed.  The final analysis is that I do not want fanatic islamic terror foreigners in the US justice system.  Keep them off shore down at gitmo for as long as the terror campaign against US and our interests are active.  However, the situation is on my radar and I pay attention to it but at the moment I have no problems with the way things are being handled down there. 
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Offline bustr

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #187 on: March 12, 2008, 12:37:07 PM »
What made them not use it?

The parents of those children and citizens all over Russia would have stood in line to pull the lever as the hangman. It outraged people all over the world. The Russian penal system is a graduate school for some of the worlds worst psychopaths, murderers, brigands and recriuts for the new Russian underworld. Or did the government figure on that and are hoping the inmates will eventualy take care of the issue?
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Elfie

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #188 on: March 12, 2008, 02:16:45 PM »
Quote
The whole trial was broadcast in Russia. Would they do that in America? ... oh, that's right the suspects won't even get a trial.

OJ Simpsons trial was broadcast on tv.
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In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Lumpy

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #189 on: March 12, 2008, 04:44:22 PM »
I am not at all familiar with the russian trial.  Is the accused russian?  Was he found guilty of murdering children?  women?  I know nothing about it and as far as Im concerned its an internal russian problem.

As far as guitmo goes my opinion is that the islamic fanatic terror problem is a unique problem in our history and needs to be dealt with.  Guitmo at first glance appears to be a unique way of dealing with a unique problem.  First glance works for me.  Most of the people who complain about the Git are people whos opinions I tend to despise to begin with anyway so I pay them no heed.  The final analysis is that I do not want fanatic islamic terror foreigners in the US justice system.  Keep them off shore down at gitmo for as long as the terror campaign against US and our interests are active.  However, the situation is on my radar and I pay attention to it but at the moment I have no problems with the way things are being handled down there. 

If you took the time to read my post you would have known the answers. And there is nothing unique about Islamic terrorism. It's old news, at least in the old world.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Lumpy

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #190 on: March 12, 2008, 04:46:52 PM »
What made them not use it?

The parents of those children and citizens all over Russia would have stood in line to pull the lever as the hangman. It outraged people all over the world. The Russian penal system is a graduate school for some of the worlds worst psychopaths, murderers, brigands and recriuts for the new Russian underworld. Or did the government figure on that and are hoping the inmates will eventualy take care of the issue?

If you took the time to read my post you would have know the answers. A group of parents and survivors of the Beslan siege made a plea to the court to let him live. No one can say that the Russians aren't a compassionate people.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 04:50:16 PM by Lumpy »
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Lumpy

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #191 on: March 12, 2008, 04:49:21 PM »
OJ Simpsons trial was broadcast on tv.

O. J. Simpson wasn't a foreign terror suspect. O. J. Simpson was a football celebrity and a movie star. If he had been a foreign terror suspect there wouldn't have been a trial to broadcast.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Yeager

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #192 on: March 12, 2008, 04:58:34 PM »
O. J. Simpson wasn't a foreign terror suspect. O. J. Simpson was a football celebrity and a movie star. If he had been a foreign terror suspect there wouldn't have been a trial to broadcast.

so Kulayev being chechen is equivalent to him being a foreign terrorist?  I thought the Chechens were part of the Russian federation?  He seems more like our Tim McVeigh...who was rightfully executed btw.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Lumpy

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #193 on: March 12, 2008, 05:03:41 PM »
so Kulayev being chechen is equivalent to him being a foreign terrorist?  I thought the Chechens were part of the Russian federation?  He seems more like our Tim McVeigh...who was rightfully executed btw.

Chechen independence is a difficult subject. Sort of what Mexicans are to you guys. I don't think Chechens are considered Russian under Russian law. Russia has recognized Chechen independence in the ceasefire agreement.

Btw. Timothy McVeigh was not charged with terrorism.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Elfie

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Re: When torturing is OK for feds shouldn't it be allowed for others too?
« Reply #194 on: March 12, 2008, 06:23:23 PM »
Quote
O. J. Simpson wasn't a foreign terror suspect. O. J. Simpson was a football celebrity and a movie star.

Point is, it was broadcast. Not whether or not he was a terror suspect.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.