Author Topic: So the F4U's a super plane..  (Read 2819 times)

Offline Grits

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5332
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2008, 10:58:10 AM »
What did VF-17 fly before they got F4Us?

Also, my Dad was a Naval Aviator and a Flight Instructor here at NAS Pensacola, I am fully aware of how the flight training process works. I also know how difficult the transition to totally new aircraft type can be.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 11:01:40 AM by Grits »

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2008, 11:04:21 AM »
Grits, I think they were threatened with F6Fs but the sq cdr fought to keep the f4us. I'd guess they switched from F6Fs. Just a guess.

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2008, 11:15:22 AM »
Krusty,

It should be pointed out that the average amount of flight time pilots during WWII had before being sent into combat would be appallingly minimal by today's standards.

Also, VF-17 was formed AS an F4U squadron, I believe.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Bodhi

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8698
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2008, 11:19:48 AM »
I disagree that it's all operator incompetence that earned this reputation.

Since the game is based upon factual numbers, how about you back up your opinion that this is not the case.  The F4u was a new type that was introduced during a war.  It took time for the syllabus for flight training to be drawn up.  Inexperience in type was a major hazard for all new pilots.  The F4u helped introduce a new engine type to the Navy, the R2800.  With this engine a whole new set of problems arrived, including high torque.

They're not going to go from a SNJ to a f4u. They all have orientation flight, they have training, they are sent to familiarize themselves with the planes before they're ever allowed to solo. On top of that they're experienced enough in how to fly the plane before they ever try a CV landing.

You're not giving them enough credit.

With the exception of the F4F and Buffalo, there was no in between for the Corsair.  There was simply no option but to go from the SNJ to the Corsair.  I believe Widewing can chime in here and prove that.  Pilots did go from the T-6 to the P-40, P-47, and P-51, so it is reasonable to believe they did the same on the Corsair .  My Grandfather went direct from the T-6 to the P-51.   

As for being experienced enough before trying to land on a CV, keep in mind that in the eyes of the Navy, they are not considered full fledged pilots until they accomplished that little portion of their curriculum.  The pages of naval history have plenty of pilots who washed out at the carrier landing stage.  At most, they have 250 - 300 hours of flight time.  That is no where near "experienced enough" to know all the quirks of their type.  Add to that the first time they try to land on a cv, it is:
a: moving forward
b: turbulent air over the end of the cv due to ship exhaust
c: slightly rolling

Landing on a CV for the first time had to be the most hair raising experience imaginable.

The F4u was NEVER a spitfire, and NEVER turned like one, yet here in-game it has one of the tightest turn circles and one of the most stable stalls ever.

The F4u is not a Spitfire in game either.  Unless the pilot is a complete noob, a Spitfire will eat a F4u for breakfast in a turn fight.  It's just the nature of the two aircraft.  The Spit ways almost half the weight of a F4u.  It is built for turning performance and as a pure fighter, ie eggs an after thought.  The F4u is built to land on a carrier, as well as carry bombs in addition to being a fighter. 
As for stalls in game, I agree, it is gamey, but that is an addition to the game to all planes to keep them easier to fly.  The Corsair in here, still snaps to the left at extreme when you push it to hard.  That is reflective of the real life behavior. 

Tell ya what Krusty, this is starting to look like a personal dislike of the F4u from you, almost liek you will stop at nothing to get it changed to what you believe it should be.  While I do not fear making ALL the aircraft handle more like their real life counterparts, I want real life data used to perfect that, and in the case of full flap turn performance in the Corsair, that data is scarce.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Grits

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5332
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2008, 11:43:04 AM »
As a real world example I know of from my Dad, when he was an instructor they still used both T-34s and T-28s. The step from a T-34 up to the 1200hp T-28 was a HUGE and dangerous step even in 1970, imagine going from an SNJ to an F4U, its a much bigger step.

Offline Furball

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15781
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2008, 01:25:01 PM »
Quote
The US Navy received its first production F4U-1 on 31 July 1942, with carrier trials beginning on the USS SANGAMON on 25 September 1942. Getting the machine into service proved difficult. The framed "birdcage" style canopy provided inadequate visibility for deck handling, a serious concern given the kind of damage the oversize prop could do to anybody or anything that got in its way. Even more seriously, the machine had a nasty tendency to "bounce" on touchdown, which could cause it to miss the arresting hook and slam into the crash barrier, or even go out of control. The long "hose nose" visibility problem has already been mentioned, and there was the inevitable issue of the enormous torque of the Double Wasp: if a pilot was waved off a carrier landing, he would throttle up and bank off to the left for another pass, and the Corsair had a nasty tendency to flip over on its back if revved up incautiously. Yet another peculiarity was that, due to propwash effects, the left wing would stall before the right on the landing approach, which tended to make the aircraft roll to the left as well...

...with Corsair pilots freely admitting that the F4U was unforgiving and not a good choice for a green pilot. Over half the losses of Corsairs in the Pacific Theater were credited to accidents and not combat.

http://www.vectorsite.net/avf4u.html

Truth or not, i don't know.  Sources are listed at the bottom of the page, it does appear that the torque is undermodelled.  Try rolling a Tempest, Typhoon or Spit 14 at low speed compared to the F4U,  IIRC you cannot even keep the Temp level on a WEP climbout after takeoff because of the torque effect and snapshots in the 14 are very difficult because of the odd torque.  The N1K and La7 do not suffer from torque either.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 01:27:07 PM by Furball »
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
-Cicero

-- The Blue Knights --

Offline Furball

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15781
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2008, 01:42:34 PM »
Meyer, Corky "Navy taste test...: Hellcat vs. Corsair". Flight Journal. Dec 1998.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_199812/ai_n8817082/pg_1

Quote
Before measuring Corsair takeoff performance, I performed the usual required stalls in all configurations. This model of the Corsair had the new and improved stall tripper wedge on the right wing to improve stalls. It was quite clear to me that the Hellcat was much more docile and controllable during and after stalls, especially in the landing-condition accelerated stalls. The Corsair had more of an abrupt wing drop in the normal stalls and was more difficult to un-stall than the Hellcat. Even worse, the Corsair did a totally unexpected double snap roll when performing a 5G accelerated stall in the clean condition. During these tests, I should have been more impressed with the Corsair's reactions than I was. The Corsair was really talking to me.

Pretty biased report it seems, but some useful info in there.  I am in no way against the F4U, just interested in how it flew historically.
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
-Cicero

-- The Blue Knights --

Offline Grits

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5332
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2008, 02:17:55 PM »
I'm not saying the Corsair should be easy to fly, nor that it is correct in AH. I am saying that most of the stories about its poor low speed handling are from non-test pilots during the process of transitioning to the F4U from another plane. This means there is a tacit comparison to their previous aircraft, which was probably less than half the HP and weight. Even in the quote in Furball's post, the Corsairs poor stall and low speed handling is noted relative to the F6F which was renowned as one of the most docile and easy to fly planes of the entire war. If you notice though, he does not seem to feel its a "deal killer" just not as good as the F6F.

Online SIK1

  • AH Training Corps
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3758
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2008, 02:33:49 PM »
Grits, I think they were threatened with F6Fs but the sq cdr fought to keep the f4us. I'd guess they switched from F6Fs. Just a guess.

VF-17 had already fully qualified in the F4U before the Navy gave them the option of transitioning to the F6F. VF-17 chose to stay with the F4U.
444th Air Mafia since Air Warrior
Proudly flying with VF-17 The Jolly Rogers

"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG54

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2008, 04:28:14 PM »
Furball: I'm in the same boat as you

Grits: Consider that the F6F was as fast as the F4u, climbed faster, had the exact same firepower, turned tighter, was MUCH more gentle and forgiving in stalls, and was battle tested. There's no reason to pick the corsair over the hellcat. Then again, some pilots say the P-39D was the best plane of the war, even after moving to P-51s, or that the P-40 was, even after going to P-47s, P-38s, etc. I don't think you can read too much into it, other than personal bias, that they chose to stick with one plane over another. There are other examples of this, too, not related to the USN.

Bodhi: 250-300 hours is hundreds of sorties, training and operational. Hundreds. By that time they had better have learned the quirks or washed out. LW pilots got a miniscule fraction of that many times. Japanese pilots toward the end of the war even less. If, even after so much flight time, pilots still had trouble, it is a sign of a difficult to handle airframe. RAF pilots in BOB had much less flight time for their spits than LW pilots had for their 109s. Both sides were commonly held to be evenly matched, in regards to fighter effectiveness (a group of 109s fights a group of spits, it's a pretty even matchup). However, the 109 pilots were much much more experienced than the spit pilots. History shows us that the spit was a lot easier to handle, much more forgiving, and the 109 was much more difficult to handle, less forgiving.

So if pilots with 250-300 hours flight time were having accidents left and right in teh F4u, one might draw the conclusion that it's a difficult to handle plane, rather than blaming a "mere" 250-300 hours flight time. The same pilots had little to no trouble on the F6F. If it were only pilot error, all types would have had the same rate of accidents. Once we agree that all planes handle differently, and given average pilot skill, the same set of pilots crashes in plane A but not in plane B, plane A usually has handling problems.

I think that's the inference a lot of people are making on the corsair, and IMO it holds up against the reports from pilots that flew it.

And, yes, F4us in-game do out turn spits. All save the SpitV.

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=f4u1&p2=f4u1d&p3=spit9&p4=spit16

Offline Grits

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5332
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2008, 04:45:38 PM »
Grits: Consider that the F6F was as fast as the F4u, climbed faster, had the exact same firepower, turned tighter, was MUCH more gentle and forgiving in stalls, and was battle tested. There's no reason to pick the corsair over the hellcat. Then again, some pilots say the P-39D was the best plane of the war, even after moving to P-51s, or that the P-40 was, even after going to P-47s, P-38s, etc. I don't think you can read too much into it, other than personal bias, that they chose to stick with one plane over another. There are other examples of this, too, not related to the USN.

The F4U was battle tested months before the F6F was even deployed. There was no F6F when the first pilots came out of flight training to the F4U, they came from F4Fs at best but most came from SNJs. If the F6F was so much better why did the USN use the F4U (AU-1) until the early '50s out living even the F8F?

All of this irrelevant to my point which was just to note the large jump in performance the F4U posed to those first guys that transitioned to it from trainers. I am not making an argument that the F4U was better or worse than any other plane, only that the early anecdotes must be read with that "performance shock" in mind.

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2008, 04:55:02 PM »
Krusty,

Actually, F4U was faster (marginally or markedly, depending on the model of both involved) climbed somewhat better, (again, either marginally or markedly, depending on the models involved) and I believe also had the superior acceleration. But that's beside the point.

The point is your statement that if the Corsair's accident rate was entirely attributable to error by low flight-time pilots then ALL airframes would experience the same loss rate is flawed. The only one consistent feature of all reports on the Corsair's accident history is the circumstances under which they were noted: Landing configuration.

I've yet to see any consistent reports on the Corsair's stall behavior under combat maneuvering.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2008, 05:12:34 PM »
Krusty- that web page doesn't work well for me at all, I think because my connect speed is so low.  (28K dial-up)

The pictures generally just put the little "x" in the corner.  Through repeated (6-8) tries I can usually get some of them to load, but...

Does that site (or another) show turn rate as well?  Or just radius?  I'd be curious to see that.  The F4U being able to turn the same size circle as the spit doesn't tell the whole story unless they do it at the same speed...

Honestly, when I get real slow against a spit in a flat circle I know I'm screwed, since he'll creap around behind me eventually.  Most of my kills against spits are early in the fight, while he's still too fast to turn at his best radius.  I seldom use the "best" radius for the F4U either, since flying around near a stall in aslow accelerating plane is not good strategy in my book.

Again, I'm not complaining OR defending the FM, as I simply don't know.  Way too much subjective arguing to convince me either way...

MtnMan
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline Shuckins

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3412
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2008, 05:13:54 PM »
My sources on the Corsair are limited in number.  Widewing and F4UDOA have much more at their disposal than I.  So, I can't say that I'm an export of the F4U by any means.  However, I'm somewhat puzzled by some of the posters in this thread minimizing what the Navy considered to be the very troublesome carrier-qualification problems of the Corsair.

Specifically, there is a tendency, by some, to discount the opinions of qualified test pilots with thousands of hours of flight time in a wide variety of high-performance aircraft who have published accounts or testified to the aforementioned negative handling characteristics of the F4U.  Indeed, there are some who use a single inconsistency in such testimony as an excuse to dismiss the rest of the account out-of-hand.  Those championing a great aircraft should never allow their devotion to make them blind to its weaknesses and idiosyncracies.

The early Corsair's carrier qualification problems were several, and while some were correctable, others proved to be almost insuperable.  Poor visibility over the nose during carrier landings proved to be of the latter type, and was never fully resolved, although it could be compensated for somewhat by using a curving path to the approach.  

Another problem, torque roll, is aptly describe by Capt. Eric Brown of the Royal Navy.  While it is true that the British Royal Navy was able to carrier qualify its Corsairs one year ahead of the U.S. Navy, it did not happen simply because the British worked through the problems.  To quote Capt. Brown:  "We were a bit desperate at that time with our new carriers being launched faster than we were able to equip them.  The Corsairs gave us a bit of a hard time, and we soon understood exactly why the Americans had so much trouble with them.  One problem was the bad view over the nose,  Also, if one got slow on approach and added full power to go around again, one could induce an uncontrollable torque roll.  Because of it's small stabilizing vertical-fin area and high power, the arcraft would then yaw, roll, stall and spin into the water.  It also had a most non-resilient landing gear that would bounce the beast over the barrier into the parked aircraft pack on the foredeck."

"It's redeeming factor was its high kill rate - second only to the Hellcat's, but the high accident rate cost a lot of Allied pilots their lives.  The Royal Navy had a lot of trash in its Seafire and Sea Hurrican aircraft because neither was designed from the ground up for carrier operations."

A 1952 F4u-5 Pilots' Handbook states clearly on page 29, "At the stall with POWER ON, FLAPS DOWN, a roll off to the left is violent and is accompanied by a 600- to 900-foot loss in altitude."  So the torque roll problem still manifested itself even at this late a date in the Corsair's production life.  Clearly, no version of the F4U suffered fools gladly.  

Early Corsairs had a serious tendency to drop their left wing abruptly during a power-on stall during landing.  To correct this, Chance-Voung installed a leading edge strip, or spoiler on the right wing, just out-board of the "crank" or bend section.  This caused the right and left wings to stall at approximately the same time, but also increased the stall speed.  One Vought pilot is quoted in Francis Dean's AHT as stating, "I found the device had more of a psychological effect for apprehensive pilots than a positive cure for the unsymmetrical stall."

I haven't flown in AH for a while, so I can't comment directly on the Corsair's turning ability with full-flaps, power on.  Yet, according to much that I have ready over the years, being low-and-slow in any aircraft the size and weight of the F4U was NOT where a pilot wanted to be when fighting the Japanese, or any light-weight, cut-and-thrust enemy fighter.  The speed for maximum deployment of the flaps was 230 mph, and the maneuvering setting on the flaps was 20 degrees.  Any five-ton fighter flopping around with full flaps at speeds under 200 mph was begging to get clobbered by any proficient Japanese pilot.  The maneuvering setting would allow the Corsair to stay with a Zero at that speed for 1/4 of a turn;  an attempt to reef it in and outturn the Zeke to attain a killing shot would put the American in danger of stalling out.  Within three turns, the Jap would be punishing the Corsair's pilot for making such a stupid error.

While post-war Navy and Marine pilots tended to be high-time in flight experience, such was not the case during the early part of WW II.  The landing problems inherent in the designe were of great concern to the Navy which, in the opinion of many experts, was fully justified in pulling it from carrier duty three times during the war.

Regards, Shuckins

« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 05:19:40 PM by Shuckins »

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: So the F4U's a super plane..
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2008, 06:03:15 PM »
Shuckins,

I don't think the Corsair's stall issues are being disregarded at all.

HOWEVER what IS being disregarded is that in every piece of evidence used by those who are trying to discredit the current model (and that's exactly what seems to be happening) the Corsair's lethal departure tendencies ARE LARGELY ONLY REFERENCED IN REGARDS TO LANDING CONFIGURATION. More specifically, the aircraft's violent departure when a pilot over-revs the engine during a stall or go-around on landing. I have YET to see any notable or consistent report presented that specifically describes the F4U's stall behavior under combat maneuvering and configuration.

In fact, what official reports and tests on the aircraft's actual combat capabilities and maneuverability I HAVE seen make a point of the F4U's excellent responsiveness and maneuverability, and definite (Fw-190) or marginal (F6F) advantage over a number of other aircraft in direct comparisons (I'm sure WW or F4UDOA can be convinced to repost the Fw vs F4U vs F6F test report).

Does this necessarily mean that there would different results of stall tests performed under extreme combat maneuvering vs landing configuration? No it doesn't, but neither does the lack of information rule OUT the Corsair's ability to engage in near-stall combat maneuvering.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 06:05:42 PM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.