Author Topic: You want realism....No really???  (Read 2008 times)

Offline LEDPIG

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You want realism....No really???
« on: March 10, 2008, 06:07:51 AM »

Just an interesting question....I've always wondered what it would be like to have things such as setting intercooler doors, superchargers, mixtures, rpms, and the resulting damage that occurs if done wrongly would be.

I think it would be interesting, make the game a pain, but it be funny to be behind a Mustang and watch him blow up his engine, cause he forgot to set his oil coolers, or a 38 loose a breaker and watch his props go crazy in an rpm runaway. I play IL-2 quite frequently and you can set it to model those things. Gives you an idea of the stuff these guys had to do.

Again, don't really mean this, just a curious thought.

What are your opinions, thoughts ?

Ledpig
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Offline angelsandair

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Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2008, 06:41:54 AM »
uhhhh....... NO!

I struggle enough getting my K/D ratio past 1 in the game after 200 fighter kills.
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Offline wooly15

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Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2008, 08:18:00 AM »
I've watched some old P-47 and F4U training films and the pre-flight check lists alone are insane.  Can you imagine trying to keep up with that stuff for all of the planes we have each being a unique procedure?  :O  I still think it would be cool to do...it would probably limit me to 1 sortie a night though.

Offline colmbo

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Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2008, 09:13:59 AM »
Most of the aircraft had automated systems so the workload probably wouldn't be as high as folks think it would be.  Even engine management is pretty simple and simple -- it just looks intimidating.
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Offline Puck

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Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2008, 10:06:11 AM »
It's not so much the workload, it's how you implement the workload that gets  ticklish.  There are only so many keys on a keyboard, and you can't assume everyone has a full-blown simpit customized for a specific aircraft.

So, just imagine finding yourself on SkyRock's tail with an ALMOST perfect firing solution but you need to close your intercooler door slightly...

...just press <CTRL><ALT><SHIFT><META>F6 to select intercooler door, then press <ALT><SHIFT>M three times to set the intercooler door to the correct position followed by <CTRL>P to engage.

Meanwhile some zip code in an La-7 just rammed you from behind.
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Offline Old Sport

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Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2008, 11:25:19 AM »
Might be something to it, hitting CTRL G twenty one times to pump up the landing gear of a Spitfire. :D

Offline DaddyAck

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Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2008, 12:03:21 PM »
I like more pilot interaction with his machine.  IL2 1946 has those elements in it, and it is not bad onve you get used to watching your engine temps and things.  I actually like it.  But most probably will not.

Offline CAP1

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Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2008, 12:54:19 PM »
Just an interesting question....I've always wondered what it would be like to have things such as setting intercooler doors, superchargers, mixtures, rpms, and the resulting damage that occurs if done wrongly would be.

I think it would be interesting, make the game a pain, but it be funny to be behind a Mustang and watch him blow up his engine, cause he forgot to set his oil coolers, or a 38 loose a breaker and watch his props go crazy in an rpm runaway. I play IL-2 quite frequently and you can set it to model those things. Gives you an idea of the stuff these guys had to do.

Again, don't really mean this, just a curious thought.

What are your opinions, thoughts ?

Ledpig
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helllllll....we can kinda get an idea even without having to set all of these things ourselves......how many times have you hit a bomber because you misjudged your rate of closure? or got a bit over anxious and compressed your plane.....or in a furball, hit another plane? could you imagine if friendly collisions were turned on? i've had as many as 5 or 6 guys on my 6.....and theroeticaly that's impossible.......but hell.....5 guys all turning to try to get one guy, is sure to be mid air collision......

 just take a bomber on a long range mission too, at say...14-17k.....see how long your ammo lasts if anyone decides to come after ya........

anyway..just my 2 cents.

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Offline SgtPappy

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Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2008, 01:41:23 PM »
That's an awesome idea but I think HTC stayed away from it in order to keep the game simple enough for everyone... even zip codes and whiners to play it.

Oh, hell, HTC, what have you done!
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Offline LEDPIG

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Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2008, 02:05:44 PM »
That's an awesome idea but I think HTC stayed away from it in order to keep the game simple enough for everyone... even zip codes and whiners to play it.

Oh, hell, HTC, what have you done!

Maybe it would keep the zipcodes and whiners out..... I'm used to in IL-2, to going ok engines getting warm, back off the power open my cowl flaps some. I'm getting high need to lean my mixture, adjust my rpm's. Oh i'm at 8,000ft need to engage first stage of supercharger. It's fun... :) but like a say it's a hassle and this is a game. And it's made to have fun, so this is not really a serious inquiry.

Check out this article about the stuff a P-38 pilot had to do if he got bounced.

3. As a typical case to demonstrate my point, let us assume that we have a pilot fresh out of flying school with about a total of twenty-five hours in a P-38, starting out on a combat mission. He is on a deep ramrod, penetration and target support to maximum endurance. He is cruising along with his power set at maximum economy. He is pulling 31" Hg and 2100 RPM. He is auto lean and running on external tanks. His gun heater is off to relieve the load on his generator, which frequently gives out (under sustained heavy load). His sight is off to save burning out the bulb. His combat switch may or may not be on. Flying along in this condition, he suddenly gets "bounced", what to do flashes through his mind. He must turn, he must increase power and get rid of those external tanks and get on his main. So, he reaches down and turns two stiff, difficult gas switches {valves} to main - turns on his drop tank switches, presses his release button, puts the mixture to auto rich (two separate and clumsy operations), increases his RPM, increases his manifold pressure, turns on his gun heater switch (which he must feel for and cannot possibly see), turns on his combat switch and he is ready to fight. At this point, he has probably been shot down or he has done one of several things wrong. Most common error is to push the throttles wide open before increasing RPM. This causes detonation and subsequent engine failure. Or, he forgets to switch back to auto rich, and gets excessive cylinder head temperature with subsequent engine failure.

They were just talking about installing an automatic power console function that adjusted engine parameters but it hadn't been installed yet. The Focke Wulf had a full automatic power control unit, one of the first of it's day. But for most planes you were on your own with most things....

Eye opening isn't it..... :O  That's why these guys are hero's...just another reason... :salute
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 02:08:21 PM by LEDPIG »
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Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2008, 02:18:00 PM »
TargetWare's set up the same way, LEDPIG. But I believe it's also why you hardly see anyone flying either of those two sims' as much.

HTC made this simple enough to be fun, and that way to keep the sub's coming in, as many and as often as possible.

A Squeaker or a zipcode's money is just as good as yours, after all.

Offline Kweassa

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Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2008, 02:50:43 PM »

 There's a different side to consider in all this.

1.

 WW2 lasted for 6 years from 1939 to 1945. From a technological standpoint, 6 years is a long time in research and development, and the technological gap between early war aircraft and late war aircraft in varying fields ranging from ergonomics to automation, is very wide. Contrary to what colmbo said, automation in plane management was not common, and it took considerable amount of high-grade technology to come up with a system that warrants minimal human management. In combat, a complex plane to manage may even result in deaths, as can be seen in many existing AARs on how an unseasoned pilot came close to meeting his maker, because he made a mistake.

 In this sense, it can be said that what kind system the plane is equipped with, is as much a combat factor as its speed, climb-rate, or turn radius. Thus, in principle, more complex forms of management can become another excellent material to depict in a combat simulation game.


2.

 The problem is in coming up with a generic, simplified form of management that can depict some of the basic (but also important) differences of individual planes and their on-board systems, and yet still easy to comprehend and use for gaming purposes. Obviously no one wants a 20-step checklist just to take-off, or remember the sequence in which they fiddle with pitch and throttle levers so they don't over-rev and blow out their CSU everytime they adjust speed.

 Many AH gamers frown at the concept of "engine management", but it doesn't have to be all that complex. The whole "complexity" bit is fairly relative; players of some other games with more relaxed realism in plane handling consider AH a very complex and difficult game to play. When I came over to AH from Fighter Ace, learning to learn the limits of flaps, using the hook to land on CVs, switching between fuel tanks, learning the weapons selection system, learning to use hat-keys for views were all very "complex" to me, until I got used to it. Its basically a matter of getting used to.


3.

 A worthy comparison might be made with the IL-2 series from 1C:Maddox. IL-2 has its vices for sure, but there are some very compelling strengths to the game, and one of them is the concept of "CEM - complex engine management". This is a very clever use of words, since IL-2's "CEM" is in reality, anything but "complex". It's basically a very generalized, simplified form of engine management system which is divided into 3 major parts - throttle, pitch, and mixture, coupled with some additional systems that deal with superchargers, radiators and etc..

 People who are used to AH, and never played IL-2 think that "CEM" is a needlessly complex form of realistic depiction. But frankly, learning to use the CEM is as about as complex as learning when to drop down flaps during combat - you essentially memorize perhaps one or two more factors in game, and just press the keys accordingly.

 In many cases, the mixture control is rarely used under normal circumstances. Only at very high altitudes where the air is so thin, does anyone need to fiddle with mixture control. In German planes, the mixture control is automated through the use of Kommandogeraet, so there's no need to use it at all. Prop pitch control is hardly ever touched, since most planes use CSU. The only thing people really use often with IL-2's "Complex Engine Management", is like in AH, the throttles. In some planes the supercharger has to be set manually, in which case all you have to do is memorize the altitude range you have to kick in the supercharger to next gear.

 Essentially, in most cases IL-2's CEM makes you push just one (that's right, one) more button during combat.


4.

 Then what's the point of "CEM" in IL-2?

 "CEM" is an illusion - a cleverly implemented device that gives out a feel of complexity and realism. It's an immersion device, which apparently works so well in achieving its goal, AH gamers think that IL-2's plane management is more complex and realistic than AH, when in reality its not. Unless you completely forget to shift to next supercharger gear, or forget to thin mixture when flying at 30k, the planes mostly perform no better or worse than in AH. The workload befalls to the pilot in IL-2 and AH2, is about the same, barring perhaps the use of one or two more keys.

 This is plain ingenuity - they made a system that uses 1~2 more keys than AH under normal circumstances, and immediately, it gives out a powerful feel of immersion despite not being all that different. This, IMO, is something AH can use. Instead of just outright refusing everything, a small compromise such as the "CEM" can change how people perceive the level of realism in AH, without changing anything much in reality.



 Think of it this way:

 Just how "difficult" will AH become when it is equipped with a CEM exactly same to that of IL-2?

1. The La-7 pilots will have to press one key to shift superchargers at high altitudes.
2. Many allied planes, such as P-47s or P-51s, will have to press one key at very high altitudes to thin the mixture out.
3. German plane pilots will have to do neither - they've got Kommandogeraet. They can perhaps gloat about it.

 Practically, this is about it. There are some other methods in using the CEM, but its effects are minute at best. A very small change, which brings out a big illusion of immersion.

Offline Tilt

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Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2008, 03:03:14 PM »

1. The La-7 pilots will have to press one key to shift superchargers at high altitudes. 

And having done that if he raises revs to 2500 his engine will last about 30 secs........... 

but to address the original

I think HT has made it very clear that additional management that carries consequences that deny access to combat (such as total engine failure etc) are not favoured options.........the line most likely to succeed is  one where some marginal benefit is gained from good engine management..................
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Offline colmbo

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Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2008, 03:06:04 PM »



2. Many allied planes, such as P-47s or P-51s, will have to press one key at very high altitudes to thin the mixture out.
 

But did the real P-47 or P-51 have to adjust mixture at altitude?  I don't think so.  The mixture was Cutoff/Auto-lean/Auto-Rich.  Depending on the power setting you select either auto-lean or auto-rich and the carb handles the rest.  A lot of what I've seen in sims to add "engine management" is just stuff added in sims to add engine management and isn't realistic.

Engine managment would be fun...as long as it realistic and not something done just to add to the game.
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Offline LEDPIG

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Re: You want realism....No really???
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2008, 04:12:33 PM »


  To add to all this, i didn't really mean i meant this to be IMPLEMENTED in AH. I just brought it up as a fun curiosity.  :)

I'll explain what i mean...in IL-2 for instance your flying along. You have your rpm, manifold, and mixture set for a max economy (sometimes i do this for immersion, not necessary in AH). I'm jumped by Germans, i move my one switch on my control stick throttle to full rpm, push the mixture up, (two buttons mind you) and advance the throttle. I drop my DT's (same as in AH). Depending on plane, my supercharger is already set, (some you dont have to set). I check my oil intercooler or cowl flaps (another one button). During the fight i check my engine instruments to check temp and back out of wep or throttle and open or close my cowl flaps or intercooler doors accordingly, (for some planes this is automatic, again it's just one button).

I really just pushed two maybe three more buttons thats it, it's taken me two extra seconds. In Il-2 you can blow your engine out by over temperature, but you can put up a little gamey automatic message that says "engine overheat", or just use your actual oil temp and oil pressure gauge. I've never over rev'd in that game, don't know if you can. But you will hear your props speeding up quite a bit if your in a dive and gun the throttle.

Another thing Il-2 has a fire extinguisher canisters that can be fired maybe one to three times to put out a fire. After that you have exhausted your supply. It really works in putting out fires. And if the fire is too bad and you used up your supply your going to burn anyway. Also diving does put out fires, seems again if fire is too bad, or you can't gain enough speed by diving it won't help you. Seems like i remember AH having something like this, it doesn't seem to work now. Seems like this fire management would be a nice little addition, instead of being generically doomed to burn every time your lit up.

Another thing, no prop feathering? It's mighty fun if after your engine is shot out you can feather a prop and see that still propellor blade just sitting there, adds to my immersion.  :)

It's just little things like this that i'm talking about, and you could turn this complex features off like you turn off the stall limiter in this game.

Ledpig
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