Author Topic: Slave Reparations  (Read 4441 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #90 on: March 16, 2008, 08:59:50 PM »
Thank you again.

Although I don't accept your various adaptations, let's for the moment just look at this one.

In that Constitutional argument, it happens that South Carolina was correct.
So you say the reason for the SC’s secession was because they had a right to.

No other reason.
Unless you are prepared to post that part of the original Constitution that specifically denies a State the right to leave the Union and the other part that specifically enumerates the power to militarily force a State remain in the Union?

Ah, I see.... the Constitution does not enumerate that power to the Federal government, does it?

Except for this:

Quote
Section 8. The Congress shall have power:

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

And of course that is what congress did after the Ft Sumter battle when Lincoln  proclaimed:
Quote
Whereas an insurrection against the Government of the United States has broken out in the States of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas, and the laws of the United States for the collection of the revenue cannot be effectually executed therein comformably to that provision of the Constitution which requires duties to be uniform throughout the United States:
So, SC had the right to leave and SC had the right to ask the military forces of a foreign power to leave sovereign SC territory which SC did.

Only if you accept that SC was an independent nation at the time. And of course that was an unconstitutional act of the state legislatures, because;

Quote
Article. VI. - Debts, Supremacy, Oaths
All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

I think it can be safely argued that throwing away the constitution is not the greatest way to support it.
All this is in the other thread, in case you forgot.
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Offline Toad

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #91 on: March 16, 2008, 09:14:39 PM »
There is no part of the Constitution that forbids a State from putting the succession issue before its legislature, voting on it and acting on that vote.

In short, it is not insurrection for a Legislature to vote to withdraw from the Union. The South did not attempt to overthrow the government of the Union or the North. They attempted to withdraw from the Union, leaving the North's form of government unchanged for the North. That is in no way insurrection. Nowhere in the Constitution is there a provision making a State bound forever to the Union just because they ratified the Constitution.

As you pointed out, this is all in the other thread. We're being profligate with our electronic ink.


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Offline Tango

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #92 on: March 16, 2008, 09:17:12 PM »
Are you trolling?

No, its just that you sound as though the North was on a holy crussde to free the black man in the Civil War. It was one of the issues but States Rights was the big reason for it.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #93 on: March 16, 2008, 09:25:24 PM »
There is no part of the Constitution that forbids a State from putting the succession issue before its legislature, voting on it and acting on that vote.

In short, it is not insurrection for a Legislature to vote to withdraw from the Union. The South did not attempt to overthrow the government of the Union or the North. They attempted to withdraw from the Union, leaving the North's form of government unchanged for the North. That is in no way insurrection. Nowhere in the Constitution is there a provision making a State bound forever to the Union just because they ratified the Constitution.

As you pointed out, this is all in the other thread. We're being profligate with our electronic ink.

I think firing on Union troops is insurrection...but that's just me. Am I right in my understanding that you continue to think that SC seceeded for the reason that they had a right to do it?  I mean that's what I'm getting.
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Offline Toad

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #94 on: March 16, 2008, 09:29:57 PM »
I'll just refer you to the other thread again.

That one is refuted there as well.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Hamltnblue

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #95 on: March 16, 2008, 09:31:57 PM »
Well I've been paying alot of taxes to pay for fat lazy welfare reciepients to sit on their fat tulips in their 200k affordable housing collecting Welfare and food stamps along with every other program they qualify for.   I think that makes me a slave.  So Yup Slave Reparations sounds good to me. :D

Offline Mr No Name

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #96 on: March 16, 2008, 11:19:21 PM »
I doubt Obama is dumb enough to bring up reparation, he would loose a lot of his white constituents.

I doubt it too because they have not made enough advancements with body armor for such an attempt! LOL
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Offline LEDPIG

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #97 on: March 16, 2008, 11:46:11 PM »
No, its just that you sound as though the North was on a holy crussde to free the black man in the Civil War. It was one of the issues but States Rights was the big reason for it.

No i do not believe they were on a holy crusade. I believe i have heard that Lincoln was quite a bit predjudiced himself. The North was no more interested, maybe just a little bit more lenient than the South and more willing to change.

Along with all the other political and States issued that you and the others have brought up.
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Offline LEDPIG

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #98 on: March 16, 2008, 11:50:30 PM »
Those that have spent quite a bit of time on studying the Civil War and that pre-war era would immediately recognize that the reference here is to Lincoln's illegal suspension of habeus corpus, implementation of military tribunals for civilians, declaration of martial law and having Congressional representatives that spoke against him deported to Canada. Of course, his greatest violation of the Constitution was in using military force to keep States in the Union. In short, Lincoln ignored the Constitution to a far greater degree than any other President before or since.

You need to brush up on the facts of the Emancipation Proclamation. It did not apply to slaves in border states fighting on the Union side; nor did it affect slaves in southern areas already under Union control. Naturally, the states in rebellion did not act on Lincoln's order, so it had no effect at all in those areas.

So, as you see, it was entirely about slaves in the South but it had no effect on slaves in the South.

By the way, for any still reading this thread the earlier thread I linked has a very good in depth discussion of the lead up to the civil war. There are many economic issues, like tariffs, that were generating much animosity between the North and the South long before Fort Sumter.

From that thread, one of my quotes:

Those of you with an interest in a fairly extensive tour of the runup to the Civil War may want to read that thread. Be forewarned, it's long.

Thank You, Toad for correcting me. I was alluding to some of those things. And some of those other things you made me remember by bringing them up. You are quite right.

You sound very knowledgeble. Are you a History major, or civil war buff?

Always nice to hear someone with a nice objective grasp of the facts and present it in a very intelligent and reasonable way.

Thank You.
 :)
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #99 on: March 17, 2008, 01:49:18 AM »
..
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 03:27:50 AM by Holden McGroin »
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Offline lazs2

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #100 on: March 17, 2008, 08:37:30 AM »
ledpig, chairboy and nuke...

""Boy a topic like this gets the closet racists, to come out like ants being drawn out and getting stuck in mollases.

Notice most of them are conservatives.....

<----Black man"

how is the above statement not playing the race card and therefore... racist?

Who here is making all the assumptions?   

oh but wait.. it was "sarcastic"..   BS.. he pointed out his race for any advantage it might give him.. any leverage.. and it worked..  all of a sudden.. anything racist he says is dismissed and he no longer has to make sense..

lazs

Offline Shuckins

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #101 on: March 17, 2008, 09:06:42 AM »
Well, I have two degrees in history, including an MSE, so I've spent a great deal of time studying that particular era.

If you're going to debate the causes of the Civil War, you're going to have to give up the attempts to seize the moral high ground.

The secession crisis of 1861 was not an insurrection in its inception.  The Deep South states withdrew in a peaceful, if somewhat uncertain and cautious manner.  Negotiations were underway from the beginning between Lincoln and the newly formed CSA government, to prevent bloodshed.  Lincoln certainly hoped to persuade these states to return peacefully to the union.  Most leaders on both sides of the issue wanted to avoid violence.  However, there were, of course, hot-heads on both sides who wanted war.  Unfortunately, some of these controlled the batteries aimed at Fort Sumter.

What might have happened if those batteries had not precipitated that conflict is one of the great unanswered questions of our history.  Would Lincoln have invaded the South if that was the case?  Would the Southern States have been permitted to leave the Union peacefully?  Since the states entered into the Union voluntarily, would their "right" to leave voluntarily be recognized by the Federal government?

The entire argument over secession and states' rights would have had to have been settled with debate and negotiation, rather than by force-of-arms, which is the worst method for settling ideological questions of this nature.

Offline Jackal1

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #102 on: March 17, 2008, 09:08:20 AM »
Heres a hint, the salves, salve owners,  traders, catchers, men, women, children, areALL DEAD,

A little salve never hurts anyone. :)
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Offline LEDPIG

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #103 on: March 17, 2008, 10:09:36 AM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 10:36:46 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Neubob

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Re: Slave Reparations
« Reply #104 on: March 17, 2008, 10:36:10 AM »
See Rule #2
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 10:37:04 AM by Skuzzy »