Author Topic: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish  (Read 2441 times)

Offline SteveBailey

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2008, 05:47:39 PM »
Gonna take a stab at this just to see:


Did you have your eyes closed when you took that stab? You didn't come close to answering either one of my questions to you. Support your assertion w/ some actual data instead of something that merely sounds provocative.  You said: 

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The big oil companies want subsidies and tax breaks so that they would get the damn things built for free

Back this up w/ some actual evidence or is it just conspiracy vapor?

Offline Getback

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2008, 05:52:18 PM »
Who is it that keeps us from developing our own oil supplies? BTW, just before Hillary took office she sold her stock in oil companies. That stock she used to gain a fortune on.

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Offline john9001

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2008, 06:11:10 PM »
i own stock in a oil company, i guess I'm one of them "rich white guys" that control this country.  :lol

Offline wrongwayric

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2008, 06:16:22 PM »
Yep a couple guys hit it right on the head. EPA!!! I'm not sure what oil company it was built a state of the art refinery in colorado, around denver i think not sure on the location. They got so harrassed by the EPA that they said screw it and shut it down, so it sits there, fully modern and ready to go but due to the EPA and tree huggers it's not worth the time nor headaches for the oil company to run it. Most of our steel plants in the U.S. have also been driven out of business and moved overseas due to the EPA, this in turn has driven a lot of other manufacturing out as it's cheaper to go to were your materials are than pay the import fees and transportation costs. I've taken loads of CAT engine blocks from the plant in peoria il, to laredo tx, drop the trailer, and picked up the same load that i took down the week before to come back to il. All because EPA laws forced them to shutdown there heat treating plant here in illinois, which is on the same site as the engine blocks are made! So now the heat treating is all done in mexico.

Offline SkyRock

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2008, 08:31:46 PM »


Back this up w/ some actual evidence or is it just conspiracy vapor?


I like to pick on Exxon so I'll quote their VP, Kenneth Cohen, on what he said about Exxons reluctance to build new refineries in the US,

 "building even a small refinery would require an investment of $2 billion to $3 billion.  Once you've made that investment, what you're looking at is `what's the growth?' It's just like any other business,"

and on the pipeline in Canada, CEO Rex Tillerson is quoted,

 "The $16.2-billion price tag for the 1,200-kilometre natural gas pipeline means that it is not viable without sizable federal aid."

I could get more quotes, but my point is proven with these two.



Exxon has been raking in $10,000,000,000 quarterly in profits for years now.  PROFITS, mind you!!!!!  Could have paid for both of these projects in 1/2 year.  But then again, that would mean more gas production and..............lower....... ..prices. :uhoh



It is not about partisan politics, it's about being a red-blooded american who doesn't like Nation-like companies qouging them at will. :aok


Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline NUKE

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2008, 08:38:16 PM »

I like to pick on Exxon so I'll quote their VP, Kenneth Cohen, on what he said about Exxons reluctance to build new refineries in the US,

 "building even a small refinery would require an investment of $2 billion to $3 billion.  Once you've made that investment, what you're looking at is `what's the growth?' It's just like any other business,"

and on the pipeline in Canada, CEO Rex Tillerson is quoted,

 "The $16.2-billion price tag for the 1,200-kilometre natural gas pipeline means that it is not viable without sizable federal aid."

I could get more quotes, but my point is proven with these two.



Exxon has been raking in $10,000,000,000 quarterly in profits for years now.  PROFITS, mind you!!!!!  Could have paid for both of these projects in 1/2 year.  But then again, that would mean more gas production and..............lower....... ..prices. :uhoh



It is not about partisan politics, it's about being a red-blooded american who doesn't like Nation-like companies qouging them at will. :aok



I agree with them. It's just like any other business. Why would they spend billions of dollars just so they could sell gas cheaper?

If the government wants refineries so badly, and if it's such lucrative business to build and operate refineries, how come no one else thought about opening them?

You think oil companies are going to spend billions on something they don't need, just to have higher operating costs? I bet gas would go up in price anyway because it would cost so much trying to dance around with the EPA.


Offline Nashwan

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2008, 08:39:05 PM »
US refinery capacity peaked in 1979 at 17.99 million barrels a day. It declined throughout the 80s and early 90s, reaching a low point of 15.03 million barrels in 1993. Since then it has risen to 17.455 mbd (2006 figure, 2007 figures not out yet)

Refinery outputs have also risen. Whilst US refineries had capacity of close to 18 mbd in 1980, they only refined 13.48 mbd. In 2006 the figure was 15.24 mbd.

Refinery capacity is not really a problem in the US. It was in 2005/06 following Katrina and safety related shut downs, but since then US gasoline prices have lagged crude prices to a great extent. US gasoline is now too cheap for the producers to make much money on. They are making their money by pumping crude out of the ground, crude that they can sell anywhere for $100 a barrel.

Offline SteveBailey

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2008, 09:11:27 PM »

I like to pick on Exxon so I'll quote their VP, Kenneth Cohen, on what he said about Exxons reluctance to build new refineries in the US,

 "building even a small refinery would require an investment of $2 billion to $3 billion.  Once you've made that investment, what you're looking at is `what's the growth?' It's just like any other business,"

and on the pipeline in Canada, CEO Rex Tillerson is quoted,

 "The $16.2-billion price tag for the 1,200-kilometre natural gas pipeline means that it is not viable without sizable federal aid."

I could get more quotes, but my point is proven with these two.


You haven't proven anything.  You said:
Quote
The big oil companies want subsidies and tax breaks so that they would get the damn things built for free

Where does  it say they want refineries for free?   where?  Since when does a pipeline= a refinery?  Now, are you full of hot air becuase you hate big, successful companies or do you actually have ANY evidence that oil companies want to build refineries for free?

Offline Holden McGroin

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2008, 09:11:38 PM »
Yes because no Republican has ever stood up to say.. no I don't want a nuclear reactor next to my million dollar house. Some of you right wingers really do fall off the deep end..

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"We certainly need energy conservation, we need alternative sources of power, but we don't want it where they want to put it," said Emrich, 62, who works at a jewelry shop in the coastal town of Barnstable, whose waterfront district of Hyannis would be looking out on the installation. "Where should they put it? Somewhere out of sight. We just would hate to see these things out there."

Right now, Boston-based Cape Wind Associates wants to locate the wind farm -- America's first offshore wind-power installation -- on a shoal just off Cape Cod. The wind conditions are ideal, as is the depth of water, and the plant would be close enough to the shore to tap into the region's existing power grid.

...

Environmentalists say the $770 million wind farm -- enough to power 3 out of every 4 homes in New England's most coveted vacation region -- would be a crucial step toward clean, renewable power, without burning a single barrel of Middle Eastern oil, and at a time when scientists are issuing increasingly urgent warnings about the effects of global warming. A draft report on the project, released last week by the Army Corps of Engineers, praised it as a nonpolluting, safe alternative to fossil fuel power plants, which now dominate the Northeast.

But to many Cape Codders, concern for global warming does not justify spoiling a view -- one that also does wonders for the local tourist trade.

Democratic Sen. Edward Kennedy, whose family compound in Hyannis would look out at the wind farm -- has warned that the unsightly turbines would depress property values and damage the local economy, which relies heavily on tourism. A Beacon Hill Institute study, commissioned by the opponents of the project, said 21 percent of the 98,000 jobs on Cape Cod were in tourism-related industries in 2000.

If nimby stops a wind farm, how does a refinery stand a chance anywhere?

Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline SteveBailey

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2008, 09:15:02 PM »
Refinery capacity is not really a problem in the US.
FWIW, from what I've read, our refineries are at capacity and we  are not producing enough to be self sufficient.

Offline SteveBailey

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2008, 09:18:05 PM »
how come no one else thought about opening them?



Actually, someone has, and is trying right here in Arizona.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12227

Offline Druss

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2008, 09:48:36 PM »
$5 a gal fuel is rolling it's way on in..

Bush and Oil co, must be real proud of them selves to manage to see the price of gas to more than double in their time in the white house. No other president has done more for big oil, I'm sure the stock holders are proud. From a average of $1.50 in 2001 when he first entered the white house, to a now record high average of over $3/gal, but just hitting $4/gal in Hawaii today. I'm sure it's on the way for the rest of us as well. Hi five!!!

I'm quite sure this president has what it takes to help big oil get us to that $5/gal  barrier. Go Bush go.. you the oil man of the year.. maybe even the decade! On a side note yet again yesterday, the dollar hit a record low 1 euro = 1.56 dollar. Bush is the man to set records!




yawn...same old tired crap.

Definition of a lunatic: someone who never changes their mind AND never changes the subject.

Goodnight. :o

Offline Charon

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #57 on: March 15, 2008, 01:02:14 AM »
There are a lot of reasons. You have to break it out into base price and volatility. You also have to remember that until gasoline gets to a terminal rack, the last stop before a station, it is a commodity. From the time it's pumped out of the ground as crude until it arrives as unleaded at the terminal it has changed hands dozens of times, with a variety of speculation and risk management involved. An oil company can't "set" a price. It can influence a price, but any number of FTC investigations, pushed by "outraged" legislators (pandering to outraged constituents) have shown nothing but natural market practices at work. The oil industry knows that every AG and congressman with a soapbox will put it in the cross hairs at any point and has to behave fairly well and ethically.

Where base price is concerned, today's prices are actually more demand driven than previously, and more natural than previous OPEC efforts. IMO up to about $60 per bbl. China and India demand, and our shift in vehicle choices have had a notable impact that the producers have been trying to meet. . Beyond that...  Speculation is playing a major role now. The GENERAL Unrest in the Middle east and Venezuela are playing a role. For Americans, the devaluation of the dollar is playing a great role and if you match graphs of WTI (West Texas Intermediate) and the value of the dollar it is uncanny. According to some, perhaps $25 per bbl. Nor have we fully recovered from Katrina.

Where volatility is concerned (major, but short price swings) particularly NOTABLE unrest in the Middle east and Venezuela spike prices as does any disruption in the distribution system. Our refining capacity is maxed out at peak periods. That is because the oil industry shut down many inefficient refineries in the 1980s at the end of deregulation and expanded capacity at newer refineries. As with any industry the goal is to have just enough capacity to meet the needs without extra. Of course, even with this efficiency returns beyond 5 percent were unusual for much of the 1990s (and many other periods in the industry) and investment financing was not as attractive as elsewhere. Refinery margins are still not all that great for the many relative hassles involved (the major integrated oil companies have shifted away from refining to some notable degree in the past decade or so). Bad decisions cost mega billions and can easily bite a refinery investor in the ass.

So now, the countries with the reserves are doing great. The oil companies are doing pretty good as the suppliers of the commodity. Refiners are doing well, but not nearly as well as E&P (exploration and production). Traders are doing well if they are smart (and stay smart). Credit card companies are doing very well off of merchant interchange fees which are percentage driven. Those who tax gasoline are doing very well. On the street, retailers make about $.07 per gallon GROSS profit and hope you go inside the C-store or use the car wash.

But, oil company profits can change overnight. Before 9/11 $20 per bbl was not that uncommon. Lets say a major recession hits. The US economy slows and unemployment rises. Fewer commuters, and more of a shift among those that do to public transportation. People switch from an 8000 lb Canyonaro to an economy car for the commute. People buy less Chinese plastic crap and other Chinese crap at the Mega-lo-Mart. The Chinese economy starts to tank and it's demand stagnates or drops. The Indian economy slows. The rest of the world economy slows. Demand drops dramatically. Oil drops easily below $50 a bbl. Opps. Suddenly any rash decisions made during the heyday bite you in the ass.

And, 1973 was no joke. The 1990s were the exception not the rule. I would say $60 bbl oil is probably a good base figure for a bit if demand stabilizes and production catches up. Like it or not, there is no magic bullet short of a massive change in US consumer behavior and a massive change in our transportation infrastructure. Alternative transportation and a lifestyle shift will have far, far more impact than alternative fuel. Ditch the big trucks for boring but sensible vehicles. Move to highly encouraged telecommuting. etc.

BTW, a lot of poster seem to be suggesting that the govt. nationalize the oil industry somehow. Well, first, we're not a notable producer, so there is not a lot you can do with these multinational oil companies who's reserves are located off our shores. Little opportunity to be a Chavez. Second, the highest prices we had up until now (adjusted for inflation) and only just matched were under govt regulation that ran through most of the 1970s into 1980. I have spoken with several nationally known consumer advocates and none of them even remotely wants things like price controls and other artificial market disrupters. We might see $7 a gallon gas if we add the brilliance of Washington onto the current situation.

BTW, "small oil" that is not making nearly as much money now downstream (refineries and below) would likely love the idea of price controls with allocation guarantees. They got so fat and happy under the previous price controls that when the industry was deregulated many couldn't handle the free market and didn't survive the transition :)

CNN has actually had some good pieces on the subject:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/13/news/economy/gas_gallon/index.htm?postversion=2008031404
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/business/2008/03/11/dinnick.uae.oil.prices.cnn?iref=videosearch

Charon

« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 01:08:25 AM by Charon »

Offline angelsandair

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2008, 01:36:54 AM »
$5 a gal fuel is rolling it's way on in..

Bush and Oil co, must be real proud of them selves to manage to see the price of gas to more than double in their time in the white house. No other president has done more for big oil, I'm sure the stock holders are proud. From a average of $1.50 in 2001 when he first entered the white house, to a now record high average of over $3/gal, but just hitting $4/gal in Hawaii today. I'm sure it's on the way for the rest of us as well. Hi five!!!

I'm quite sure this president has what it takes to help big oil get us to that $5/gal  barrier. Go Bush go.. you the oil man of the year.. maybe even the decade! On a side note yet again yesterday, the dollar hit a record low 1 euro = 1.56 dollar. Bush is the man to set records!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080314/ap_on_bi_ge/four_dollar_gas



Just imagine what will happen with the clintons?

Oh and realize this, the only reason gas went up was because of hurricane katrina. The companies found it as a way to raise prices. After katrina, gas went up 30 cents while we were filling up. So not bush. Oh and the democrat's "solution" to help us with expensive gas is to tax them.
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Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline SkyRock

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2008, 03:23:27 AM »
I agree with them.  Why would they spend billions of dollars just so they could sell gas cheaper?




Why would any american agree with someone who is trying to rape money out of us?  Do you not want gas to be cheaper if it means some company is going to make 10 billion less than 40 billion a year off of you?
Don't give a company 8 billion a year in tax incintives and subsidies that's already making 40 billion a year in profit.(profit, mind you, not costs)  It's not rocket science and it's not politically motivated, just plain american!
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 03:27:24 AM by SkyRock »

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"