Author Topic: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish  (Read 2462 times)

Offline Charon

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #75 on: March 15, 2008, 02:18:33 PM »
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Why would any american agree with someone who is trying to rape money out of us?  Do you not want gas to be cheaper if it means some company is going to make 10 billion less than 40 billion a year off of you?
Don't give a company 8 billion a year in tax incintives and subsidies that's already making 40 billion a year in profit.(profit, mind you, not costs)  It's not rocket science and it's not politically motivated, just plain american!

Gas prices and subsidies are two separate issues. Personally, I'm not a big fan of subsidies to any industry, and I've seen research that suggests even if well intended the subsidy usually fails to produce the desired results.  Of course, taking the subsidies away from the oil industry under current plans that I'm aware of will not redirect that money into the bank, so to speak. The proposals that I've seen would simply redirect that money into other industrial sectors that are move favored by the Democrats like agribusiness.

BTW, exactly who is trying to "rape" the money, and how would you fix the problem and still have a free market system, particularly since the entities involved range from foreign counties with state oil companies, to multinational oil companies (BP and Shell not even headquartered in the US) to the OPEC cartel to independent refiners and terminal operators, to any number of trading entities? As I have pointed out, the oil companies do not set a price. They can potentially manipulate that price, but at least two FTC investigations in the 2000's have found no wrong doing, and I can assure you the oversight on these investigations was certainly there.

The reality, though it is one many do not want to hear, is that we are responsible for our own pain. 1973 wasn't the exception, it was the rule for our country's energy future. The late 1980s to 1990s were an exception that geopolitical changes and our move away from efficient cars to "commuter trucks" have only exasperated. There are solutions, but they don't typically involve SUVs or 300+ hp sedans as daily commuter cars, unless you want to pay for that luxury. Just like most of the 1970s and 1980s for those of you too young to remember reality. We'll likely only see 1990s prices again if something really bad happens. But, $2 per gallon gas is not that unrealistic, perhaps.

For those old enough, here's a blast from the past:

Muscle Cars -- weren't any

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The Mustang II was built based on the smaller Pinto platform. In 1974 the engine selection was limited to either a 2.3L four cylinder or a 2.8L 105 horsepower V6, from Ford of Germany. This was the only year a V8 engine was not available in a Mustang and it was also the first year no convertible was available. From 1975 through 1978 the Mustang II did offer a 302 2bbl V8, but as with all engines of the time, it was low on power with only 122 to 140 horsepower, depending on the year and whether it was 49-state or a California car.

And the Pony wasn't the only one. Eventually by the Mid 1980s there were a few hotter economy type platforms that could pull 0-60 in the 9 second range that were considered to be "hot rods." It wasn't until probably  the mid 1990s that you saw any number of sedans with any real power at all.

Speedometers -- I can drive 85!

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In the early '80s, GM removed the 120 mph speedometer from some of its full-size, V-8-powered — and therefore lowest-mileage cars — and replaced them with speedometers that went up to only 85 mph. The idea was to show that the automaker was more concerned with how far, rather than how fast, cars would go on a gallon of fuel.


Govt. Intervention -- it works so well.

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US Oil Price Controls - Bad Policy?

The rapid increase in crude prices from 1973 to 1981 would have been much less were it not for United States energy policy during the post Embargo period. The US imposed price controls on domestically produced oil in an attempt to lessen the impact of the 1973-74 price increase.  The obvious result of the price controls was that U.S. consumers of crude oil paid about 50 percent more for imports than domestic production and  U.S producers received less than world market price. In effect, the domestic petroleum industry was subsidizing the U.s. consumer.

Did the policy achieve its goal? In the short term, the recession induced by the 1973-1974 crude oil price rise was less because U.S. consumers faced lower prices than the rest of the world.  However, it had other effects as well.

In the absence of price controls U.S. exploration and production would certainly have been significantly greater. Higher petroleum prices faced by consumers would have resulted in lower rates of consumption: automobiles would have had higher miles per gallon sooner, homes and commercial buildings would have been better insulated and improvements in industrial energy efficiency would have been greater than they were during this period. As a consequence, the United States would have been less dependent on imports in 1979-1980 and the price increase in response to Iranian and Iraqi supply interruptions would have been significantly less.
http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

An oil glut and the free market (where's the love when our profits are down?) From Time, 1987 when oil prices were plummeting. A very insightful piece that shows how the oil glut of this period led to dangerous changes in consumer behavior and a lack of investment capital in the oil industry.

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Whenever the moment of truth arrives, it would seem, the beleaguered U.S. petroleum industry will be in no position to respond to a resurgent OPEC. Fully 75% of all U.S. drilling rigs now stand idle. A total of 806 rigs are currently operating in the U.S., down from 4,530 in 1981. The oil is there for the taking, of course, but it is simply too expensive to get out of the ground. While Middle East producers can find and lift a new barrel of oil for about $1, U.S. companies spend an average of more than $17.

Investment in exploration has fallen dramatically. Last year oil firms spent an estimated $16 billion in exploration and production, down from $33 billion in 1985. Says L. Frank Pitts, head of Dallas-based Pitts Oil: "Our industry is being dismantled at a rapid rate."

That is a trend that may not be easily reversed. Rigs are being taken apart and sold for scrap. Stripper wells, which produce less than 10 bbl. of oil a day, are getting plugged up. Once a stripper well is closed, it becomes as expensive to reopen as it is to drill a new well. Petroleum engineers are abandoning the industry, and college graduates are avoiding careers in oil. Meanwhile, alternative sources of energy, such as solar heating and synfuels, are not being developed rapidly because of their high cost....

The national debate over how the U.S. can best stave off a future energy crisis is just beginning. Peter Beutel, an analyst with Elders Futures, a major Wall Street oil-trading firm, believes that despite America's current infatuation with cheap oil, most people can readily recall what it means to suffer through an energy shortage. Says Beutel: "We were caught napping twice. We would have to be extraordinarily foolish to fall into the same trap again." Maybe so. This much is certain: the oil shocks of the 1970s came as a complete surprise. The next one will not.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,963770-1,00.html

Doh!

Charon



« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 02:20:32 PM by Charon »

Offline crockett

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #76 on: March 15, 2008, 02:21:47 PM »
its beter than europe which you have to pay for a liter which is about half a galon and its more expensive than a galon

How many 20MPG cars do you think get sold every year in Europe?
"strafing"

Offline Bodhi

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #77 on: March 15, 2008, 02:28:54 PM »
How many 20MPG cars do you think get sold every year in Europe?

Different culture, and different regulations.

Trying to force us into better fuel economy cars like they are doing with this fake oil crisis is what pisses me off. 

My wife and I figured that even if gas gets to $10/gallon, we can still afford to drive the way we do.  Thats only because we aren't like 90% of Americans that are neck deep in credit card debt.  If current plans hold, we will be house payment free as well in six years.  Then, we can probably afford $20/gallon gas, and the associated costs of rising goods prices. 
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Donzo

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #78 on: March 15, 2008, 02:31:05 PM »
Yes the real reason for the high gas prices is because of the lack of refineries here in the US. This is a direct result of big oil purposely not building them to add in the needed capacity, simply because it means more profits for them as they can just charge more for their product, by exploiting the free market. That relates back to the govt, because we continue to give big oil millions in tax subsidies while they continue to screw us over. It's up to the leader of our country and the govt whom backs him to put a stop to that and put them in check. Yet to this day Bush doesn't stand tuff for the nation he just goes along with what ever big oil wants. Like nothing more than a Yes Man..

Hence Bush has dropped the ball in regards to that, is it entirely his fault? No but it's fun to get the O club in a hussy fit by saying so. However he is partly to blame because of his, for the most part "non" action. This admin tries to put the blame on OPEC rather than where it really should be put, right here in the US with big Oil. So yes he can be blamed for continuing to give big oil tax breaks and other subsidies while they continue to screw over the American people.


Are you insane? 

From your post I gather that you are implying that Bush and the Gov are the ones not allowing new refineries to be built. 

The oil companies WANT to build refineries but it's the environmentalists that stop that from happening. 

It has absolutely nothing to do with Bush and the Gov.









Offline SkyRock

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #79 on: March 15, 2008, 03:27:53 PM »
I do agree with the fact there are many multiples involved, but I expect to get screwed from the saudi's, but am not willing to like getting screwed from Exxon.   :aok

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline Charon

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #80 on: March 15, 2008, 06:09:07 PM »
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but am not willing to like getting screwed from Exxon.

You're not. There have been a number of investigations that confirm that fact. These same all powerful oil companies that somehow couldn't use their influence to get out from under $10 bbl oil in the late 1980s that made the oil industry a very ho hum investment proposition and proft taker. Market forces are a [female dog]. If there are real gougers today, they sit in front of screens and make bets on commodity price shifts and use some of the less transparent foreign exchanges.

I know you don't want to hear that. Most Americans don't. Like the guy interviewed during the immediate aftermath of Katrina. A reporter for some Midwest paper interviewed him at the gas pump and he was pissed. He was half way through a cross country trip to drop his daughter off at college in his hummer, and was absolutely outraged at the cost to fill the tank in his 12 mpg highway vehicle. A vehicle he chose to take on a multi thousand mile trip. Again, the late 1980s and 1990s were the exception, not the rule. And with globalization that is even more firmly established.

Charon

Offline SteveBailey

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #81 on: March 15, 2008, 06:18:32 PM »
I am all for that as well, Nuke.  It is the american way, except for the deliberate gouging we suffer from them at their will(which, by the way is illegal, yet for some reason they balk at that law). 

Their profit margins are lower than any retail outlet.  I had better see you start a thread  that complains about the price gouging at  The Gap.  Otherwise you are just drinking more koolaid.

Offline lazs2

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #82 on: March 16, 2008, 11:10:16 AM »
charon is right about the 70's except for the muscle car thing.. what really did em in was the bizzare and useless smog laws of the time... what they did was make it so that a car that made 400 real hp and got 13 mpg now made 120 real hp and got 12 mpg.   that did not make for an attractive muscle car environment.

It is fun to drive my hot rods that get 8-14mpg and do 12 sec quarter miles.. it is fun to ride my BMW bike that gets almost 50mpg..  I don't care about the cost of gas when I use them.   I would rather drive a 12 mpg car less than to not have it when I wanted to enjoy it.l

Raising the price of gas artificially by giving it to the government it not only a waste but a step backwards.. they will not only waste the money but use it to come up with programs that compound the waste..

better to just pay $4 at the pump and then run $2 a gallon through a shredder than give it to the government to use to control us.

lazs

Offline SkyRock

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #83 on: March 16, 2008, 12:36:16 PM »
Their profit margins are lower than any retail outlet.  I had better see you start a thread  that complains about the price gouging at  The Gap.  Otherwise you are just drinking more koolaid.
Oil is different and you know it.  They have us by the seat of the pants.

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline SteveBailey

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #84 on: March 16, 2008, 12:41:22 PM »
Oil is different and you know it.  They have us by the seat of the pants.

oil is different in that it is a commodity that we must have.  Who's fault is this?

Offline john9001

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Re: Looks like Bush will get his retirment wish
« Reply #85 on: March 16, 2008, 12:47:54 PM »
i'm going to say it again, if you think the price of gas is too high stop buying it (or buy less), the price will then come down.