Did anyone watch Battle 360 & Dogfights 3-14-08?

[Brooke]

I don't trust any of the non-vets in that show, especially that jarhead, squarejaw, knuckle-dragging lugnut who talks like he actually fought in the war.  He's a patriot and all, but his voice is just so annoying...

I'd like to see them use clips from the WWII vets more, but I think they have the Marine in as a description guy because he's a decorated war vet (not WWII, of course) whom they developed contacts with in the Shootout series (which is a great series).  His story was told in one of the Shootout episodes.  I think the same production group might do Shootout, the Lost Evidence, Dogfights, and Battle 360.  Of those, I like Shootout and the Lost Evidence best because they use lots of real footage with quite excellent-quality re-enactment spliced to fill in, but I like them all a lot and Tivo them all.

From Pooh21:  They should just give that Nussbaum guy more caffiene and have him narrate every show.

That guy was great -- Aryeh Nusbacher -- an excellent commentator.  (He appeared in the Lost Evidence series.)  I wondered why they don't use him a lot more in all their productions, but I think I know what happened.  He recently had a sex-change operation and is now Lynette Nusbacher, who still teaches at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and still has a wife and two children.  I hope they bring him (now her) back as a commentator in current and future works.

[Larry]

My favorite was the one that said the P-51 was armed with six 50mm machine guns!

How about on dogfights where it shows a P51D fighting a 109E in 1943?

[DPQ5]

project aphrodiety=big failure and waist of money

[MiloMorai]

How about on dogfights where it shows a P51D fighting a 109E in 1943?

Which show was that?

[Larry]

It was on one of the dogfights.

[Rebel]

It was on one of the dogfights.

I don't buy it. 

I've watched damn near every episode, and have the entire first season  on DVD. 

**edit** they're the only media program to get the EXACT details of Bob Johnson's flight where his Jug got shot to ribbons**/edit**

The closest thing that comes into mind is a P51 with superior speed dragging a 109G6 on a rope, straight up- that was Bud Anderson in a P-51B, and it was early '44. 

But it's hard to trust anything said in that show. One person bothered to say the the P-47 had the most firepower of any WWII fighter (Axis included). Kinda made me want to not listen to the 'historians' in the show.

I saw the episode you're talking about.  That "person" was a vet, and a -47 pilot.

On a strafing run, he literally tipped over a boxcar with the firepower from his guns.  Other 56th pilots claim to have derailed locomotives, and literally disintegrate the rear end of unsuspecting German fighters if they got at convergence just right and hammered 'em. 


  8 50 cals will put more lead on one specific spot then pretty much any other fighter out there, according to Bud Mahurin. 

[Larry]

I don't buy it. 

I've watched damn near every episode, and have the entire first season  on DVD. 

its on one of them. Iv seen it a few times.

[MiloMorai]

On a strafing run, he literally tipped over a boxcar with the firepower from his guns.

Cars and other light vehicles must have done somersaults then.

But it's hard to trust anything said in that show. One person bothered to say the the P-47 had the most firepower of any WWII fighter (Axis included). Kinda made me want to not listen to the 'historians' in the show.

Some numbers for projectile weight from a 3 second burst

F6F - 16lb
P-47 - 21.3lb
Fw190D-9 - 26lb
I-16 - 28lb
Tempest - 40lb

they're the only media program to get the EXACT details of Bob Johnson's flight where his Jug got shot to ribbons

They did?

[Rebel]

Allright then, as soon as I see the specific episode where a P51D fights an Emil in 1943, I'll stand down.   It's really hard to swallow, that's all.  Dogfights has been one of the most accurate shows I've seen- they've worked very hard to get close with the guys in the cockpit to make sure everything was accurate.

They did?

yeah, they got it down pretty much to the letter.  At least, according to my conversations with Bob (2, actually), and I'm sure Widewing spoke with him about it (he probably spent a lot more time with the guy).  Also reading Thunderbolt! by Bob confirms pretty much exactly what they said.  They even got in the part where out of desperation he started punching the canopy out of frustration. 

The only things I saw were left out were that the hydraulic line under one of his controls (flap lever, I believe) was punctured by a bullet, filling the cockpit with hydraulic fluid, and the wind coming in from a shattered windscreen whipped it into a mist, stinging his eyes as he left his goggles behind.  His had a broken lens, and he didn't bother to pick up a replacement set.

Cars and other light vehicles must have done somersaults then.

What makes you say that?  I think the top-heavy nature of the boxcar would work against it in such a situation. 

Never saw guncam of a P47 strafing a car, but I *did* see guncam of them shooting horse drawn carts, and the horses reacting pretty violently from the impact- flipping over, sliding, breaking loose from the cart and flying across the road, etc. 

I *think* it was a P47, but another guncam piece I've seen was an armored car that was driving- the deflection was close to 90 degrees, the pilot hits left rudder, hits the tail end of the car, which destabilized it enough to start fishtailing severely, then the vehicle rolled.  Could've also been a flat, but I dunno.  Seemed like the impact was pretty damn severe.

 

[Larry]

Allright then, as soon as I see the specific episode where a P51D fights an Emil in 1943, I'll stand down.   It's really hard to swallow, that's all.

See thats the thing I dont think he was fighting a an emil. All it said was he was fighting a 109. The model they used was of a 109E. Dogfights is the one that stops the show and tells you the specs and who has the firepower, speed, and maneuverability right?

[MiloMorai]

yeah, they got it down pretty much to the letter.  At least, according to my conversations with Bob (2, actually), and I'm sure Widewing spoke with him about it (he probably spent a lot more time with the guy).  Also reading Thunderbolt! by Bob confirms pretty much exactly what they said.  They even got in the part where out of desperation he started punching the canopy out of frustration. 

The only things I saw were left out were that the hydraulic line under one of his controls (flap lever, I believe) was punctured by a bullet, filling the cockpit with hydraulic fluid, and the wind coming in from a shattered windscreen whipped it into a mist, stinging his eyes as he left his goggles behind.  His had a broken lens, and he didn't bother to pick up a replacement set.
 

What makes you say that?  I think the top-heavy nature of the boxcar would work against it in such a situation. 

Never saw guncam of a P47 strafing a car, but I *did* see guncam of them shooting horse drawn carts, and the horses reacting pretty violently from the impact- flipping over, sliding, breaking loose from the cart and flying across the road, etc. 

I *think* it was a P47, but another guncam piece I've seen was an armored car that was driving- the deflection was close to 90 degrees, the pilot hits left rudder, hits the tail end of the car, which destabilized it enough to start fishtailing severely, then the vehicle rolled.  Could've also been a flat, but I dunno.  Seemed like the impact was pretty damn severe.

The Allied side is correct but the German side is not.

20 to 40lbs of bullets is going to knock over a 40,000lb + boxcar. Yah right.

I would be jumping around to if I got hit with some bullets.

See that on the roads all the time when the driver yanks on the steering wheel.

[Rebel]

See thats the thing I dont think he was fighting a an emil. All it said was he was fighting a 109. The model they used was of a 109E. Dogfights is the one that stops the show and tells you the specs and who has the firepower, speed, and maneuverability right?

Yeah, you have the series right, no question. 

Did it have a hypnotic spinner on it?  Was it in a climb, with the cannon looking right at the camera? 

If they got the body wrong and called it a Gustav, basically throwing a 30mm cannon into the nose of an emil, I could see that happening- moreover, I wouldn't really know the visual difference right off the bat- I'd have to defer to you or any of your JG54 guys.  From what I saw, however, it looked like a Gustav- nose cannon, bulges, and that weird periscope looking thingy on the left side of the cowling.

The Allied side is correct but the German side is not.

Oh, really?  Was it not the German pilot they were talking about?  I think that kind of a story would be pretty well documented on the LW side.  If a mistake was made, it was made, but I would have absolutely no idea who the german pilot was without going through German AAR's myself. 

20 to 40lbs of bullets is going to knock over a 40,000lb + boxcar. Yah right.

good point- have to see a guncam to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.  I tend to give the guys the benefit of the doubt, however.  If they say they tipped over a boxcar by shooting it, I believe 'em.  After all, it was a pair of -47's that strafed a destroyer to sinking.   

See that on the roads all the time when the driver yanks on the steering wheel.

heh- touche'.  I'd just say look up the guncam and see it for yourself.  Was pretty badprettythang. 

[MiloMorai]

good point- have to see a guncam to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.  I tend to give the guys the benefit of the doubt, however.  If they say they tipped over a boxcar by shooting it, I believe 'em.  After all, it was a pair of -47's that strafed a destroyer to sinking.

It has also been said that Tigers were knocked out by ricocheting bullets off the ground into the Tiger's belly.

Guess those Tempest with twice the weight of projectiles, and explosive besides, should be flipping boxcars then.

that weird periscope looking thingy on the left side of the cowling.

This comment says much.  It is the air intake for the engine's induction system.

Yah, look it up and you will find it was not Meyer in the 190.

[Larry]

Yeah, you have the series right, no question. 

Did it have a hypnotic spinner on it?  Was it in a climb, with the cannon looking right at the camera? 

If they got the body wrong and called it a Gustav, basically throwing a 30mm cannon into the nose of an emil, I could see that happening- moreover, I wouldn't really know the visual difference right off the bat- I'd have to defer to you or any of your JG54 guys.  From what I saw, however, it looked like a Gustav- nose cannon, bulges, and that weird periscope looking thingy on the left side of the cowling.

Its been a while but I remember on the cut off they said it had two 20mm cannon and the cannons on the wings lite up then it said it had two MGs, and the guns on the cowling lite up.


I can tell from E,F,G,and K models and that was an E. I wish I still had it DVRed Id tell you the show number. Ill keep an eye open for it.

[Rebel]

Its been a while but I remember on the cut off they said it had two 20mm cannon and the cannons on the wings lite up then it said it had two MGs, and the guns on the cowling lite up.


I can tell from E,F,G,and K models and that was an E. I wish I still had it DVRed Id tell you the show number. Ill keep an eye open for it.

Hmmm.....that kind of inaccuracy reminds me of another show- can't put my finger on it right now- where they said the F-86 had 3 machine guns, and a whole SLEW of other facts wrong.  The format was *very* similar to Dogfights.. I turned it off in disgust after the first half.  Damn.  Now that's gonna bug me. 

I'll look it up tonight when I get home.

It has also been said that Tigers were knocked out by ricocheting bullets off the ground into the Tiger's belly.

Yup.  Have yet to see evidence countering this claim.  Everything I've ever seen/read says "no way, the Tiger was the ultimate AFV" etc.  Whereas at least a dozen -47 guys said this exact same thing, It's been written in at least a half dozen books,  and a number of vets that  I've spoken to (grunts) came across more then one Tiger with holes in the belly/engine compartment that seemed to disable the thing.   

Guess those Tempest with twice the weight of projectiles, and explosive besides, should be flipping boxcars then.

Tipping ain't flipping, and I bet a Tempest would tip one if a P-47 apparently could.  I've only heard the report once- it could very well be dependent on the boxcar in question- was it missing a truck of wheels on one side, was it on a hill, was it loaded in some strange fashion, did it have explosives on one side of the boxcar, etc..  a thousand factors could be brought into play, and take any one of 'em- apply it, and suddenly tipping over a boxcar ain't that big of a problem.     

This comment says much.   It is the air intake for the engine's induction system.

Oh, lay off it, man.  I'm just saying I didn't know exactly what it was.  Wasn't about to call it something and take a WAG at it.

Yah, look it up and you will find it was not Meyer in the 190.

Fair enough- do we know who it was?