AR-15 owners Beware

[ink]

Massacre?? There were police there asking the folks to come out. They refused to come out. Smoke was used because the individuals refused. Fire started from the smoke grenades. People still chose to stay in the fire and would not release their kids. Seems to me a bunch of uncaring fanatics chose to kill thierselves and their kids.

Of course someone opposed to law & order might see it different. Bottom line... those folks had all the chances to come out.

i hate to say you are uninformed, but you are, Massacre is exactly what happened.
but no our government would'nt do that!

   ha what a joke this contry has lost its freedoms long ago, about when the government bamboozled the population into believing the federal reserve bank was voted into place. face it America is not what its sapposed to be...
   but hey we got are flat screen tvs, our big houses, fast cars, we must be free.

[lazs2]

There were several good documentaries made on the waco disaster.. they showed FLIR and interviewed the guy who invented it.   

the thing was..  there were no illegal weapons found after it was all over.. even if they had.. was it worth 28 childrens lives and all the adults?   Not to me.  I won't have children butchered in my name because someone didn't pay a tax (maybe) on a firearm.   

In the end.. before the last assault on the building... the excuse was that they had to save the children from being molested.  no mention of guns at that point.. no machine gun fire ever came from the "compound" but plenty went into it.. with little kids in there.   Why was the press not allowed to be near the whole thing?

Even klinton said it was the worst spot on his record.

Reagan tried to disband the ATF back when.. he was told union rules said you couldn't lay em off.. he tried to absorb them into the other agencies..  no other agency wanted them..

lazs

[Nefarious]

I saw: Waco: Rules of Engagement recently. Very enlightening.

[superpug1]

the main thing is proving that the gun that did it malifunctioned. AR rifles tend to start looking the same.

Thats just rediculous though. I have a AR7 survival .22 that does that sometimes, but thats just cause its 25 years old and has have a rough life.

[crockett]

I saw: Waco: Rules of Engagement recently. Very enlightening.

I saw it too, sure the ATF and govt screwed up, but the Davidian's were just as much to blame for it as the govt was. They were doing illegal things and breaking the law. Is the govt just supposed to ignore it?

[lasersailor184]

I saw it too, sure the ATF and govt screwed up, but the Davidian's were just as much to blame for it as the govt was. They were doing illegal things

Such as?

[SteveBailey]

There were several good documentaries made on the waco disaster.. they showed FLIR and interviewed the guy who invented it.   

the thing was..  there were no illegal weapons found after it was all over.. even if they had.. was it worth 28 childrens lives and all the adults?   Not to me.  I won't have children butchered in my name because someone didn't pay a tax (maybe) on a firearm.   

In the end.. before the last assault on the building... the excuse was that they had to save the children from being molested.  no mention of guns at that point.. no machine gun fire ever came from the "compound" but plenty went into it.. with little kids in there.   Why was the press not allowed to be near the whole thing?

Even klinton said it was the worst spot on his record.

Reagan tried to disband the ATF back when.. he was told union rules said you couldn't lay em off.. he tried to absorb them into the other agencies..  no other agency wanted them..

lazs

 my opinion...which is by no means any more informed than anyone else:  Since there were children in the compound, as soon as there were shots fired from inside they should have treated the  situation similar to a hostage situation.  They should have backed off and laid siege to the compound.  I'd guess... just a guess, that people would start coming out once they got hungry enough.
I cannot imagine firing 100's of rounds into a building that housed so many children. I think the ATF wanted payback for their comrades who were shot in the initial exchange.

[Gunslinger]

I saw it too, sure the ATF and govt screwed up, but the Davidian's were just as much to blame for it as the govt was. They were doing illegal things and breaking the law. Is the govt just supposed to ignore it?

I don't think anyone is saying the Davidian's were innocent but the fact remains it was the Govt's actions that caused the deaths of all those people.  

[AKIron]

my opinion...which is by no means any more informed than anyone else:  Since there were children in the compound, as soon as there were shots fired from inside they should have treated the  situation similar to a hostage situation.  They should have backed off and laid siege to the compound.  I'd guess... just a guess, that people would start coming out once they got hungry enough.
I cannot imagine firing 100's of rounds into a building that housed so many children. I think the ATF wanted payback for their comrades who were shot in the initial exchange.

As evidenced when they ran the ATF flag up the pole in front of the burned out building and bodies.

They were already ahead at the beginning with kills at 6-4. I guess they weren't satisfied until everyone was dead. 

[Shamus]

As evidenced when they ran the ATF flag up the pole in front of the burned out building and bodies.

They were already ahead at the beginning with kills at 6-4. I guess they weren't satisfied until everyone was dead. 

It is a really bad idea to raise your hand against Caesar.

shamus

[lazs2]

I think we would all agree that the last thing in the world we would want to see is 28 children burned to death, much less the adults killed.. over something as silly and inconsequential as a firearms violation..

to me.. that is the point.. the whole ATF thing is using a 20 lb sledge hammer to kill a knat.. the problem being that the knat has landed on a human being.

It is rare in the extreme that the brutality and degredation caused by the ATF really nets any truly evil and dangerous people..

It may be true that something is being left out of this case but...  what could be the reason for ninjas breaking in  the door in the wee hours of the morning... pointing machine guns at the bleary residents who have no criminal background?   how dangerous do you have to be to deserve this kind of treatment?

Like waco..  they coulda just knocked on the door and showed the warant.

lazs

[Maverick]

There is more than enough blame to go around on both sides of the Waco situation. Be that as it may, I think continuing that discussion is a bit of a departure from the original thread.

[lazs2]

mav.. be that as it may...

I don't think any of us would like to have a wee hours of the morning visit by the ATF ninja squad as they broke down the door and pointed machine guns at us and the family (while stomping our kittens) because...  well.. one of our firearms was not quite up to snuff.

I think that part is definently a part of this thread.   It is not that we think this is possible..  it is that this kind of thing happens far too frequently..  far far too. 

I would fault no one if the local sheriff had come to the guys door with a warrant.

lazs

[SteveBailey]

mav.. be that as it may...

I don't think any of us would like to have a wee hours of the morning visit by the ATF ninja squad as they broke down the door and pointed machine guns at us and the family (while stomping our kittens) because...  well.. one of our firearms was not quite up to snuff.

I think that part is definently a part of this thread.   It is not that we think this is possible..  it is that this kind of thing happens far too frequently..  far far too. 

I would fault no one if the local sheriff had come to the guys door with a warrant.

lazs

The sad and frightening thing is that kicking down someone's door in the middle of the night would result in the homeowner getting killed sometimes instead of taken off to jail if the Sherriff merely tried to serve a warrant.

I know that I would be killed.  I would not be willing to put down my arms if I heard the door get kicked in. I wouldn't be willing to risk the life of my children in the event that the home invaders were not actually LE. I would, however, risk my own that they were telling the truth.  They would be met with a barrage of gunfire from upstairs. No doubt I'd be killed but if they were cops, my kids would probably be safe.  I would not allow myself to be disarmed under a kick-in-the-door and charge scenario, since there would be no time to positively identify the  invaders.  Anyone can yell "police!"

For this same reason, I have instructed my wife to never pull over her vehicle for an unmarked car. She's instructed to continue driving and wait for a standard LE vehicle to join.

[Shuffler]

Have you watched Waco: the Rules of Engagement? http://www.waco93.com/

If not, you should. Changed my perspective.

I do not get my info from movies. The branch divideans were a problem that needed to be dealt with. They were not machine gunned.... they pretty much commited suicide. They had a choice and they made it. The first shots were fired from inside and at identified police. While it is never good for children to die.... their parents obviously did not care enough about them and put them in harms way.