Author Topic: Why puffy ack doesn't work.  (Read 1932 times)

Offline Krusty

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Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« on: March 17, 2008, 09:44:21 AM »
Folks have complained about puffy ack for a while.

Why can bombers, flying level, steady, and slow, be unharmed while fighters doing 500+ TAS at 25k are hit repeatedly while jinking and evading?

Hitech has explained how it works. There's a box within which ack is fired. The box follows your plane. The box gets larger (the area the hits can explode gets less dense) the faster you are, if you're turning, or diving/climbing.

Yet, somehow, this disparity of intent and effect persists!

While flying 500 TAS at 22k over an ack strat, and being pinged REPEATEDLY, I decided it was time to type up why I think the puffy ack doesn't work properly, and perhaps get it changed.


This is all based on my experience, and based on what Hitech has described, and using some logic I can put together a reason for what's not working.

Say you have a box around a plane. However the code is set up, say a % of the shots are all clustered pretty close to the center of it (even if they're not hits, they're near misses). So you fly level and oooh and ahh at the eye candy bursting around you, but your bomber never takes a hit.

Now, say you're in a fighter, making S motions gently, climbing and diving but still going very fast. The box opens up to a larger box. The puffy ack can still spread out and be further away, but it's still got N% near the center of the box.

So, it's hard to explain without diagrams and sketches, but since I'm at work and have no access to photoshop I'll have to use words.

If while flying steady and slower, a puffy burst would have gone off at your 11 oclock too far away to hurt you, since you were S-turning to the left anyways, and going much faster, you've now flown INTO the puffy ack.

The intent is that the ack gets further away from you, less likely to hit, the result is that it gets more in front of you and more likely you will actually fly INTO it rather than past it.

Think of it as a ring around the plane, but the ring doesn't take into account speed and velocity changes. If you are constant, the ring is constant and keeps pace. You might get close to the front of the ring, but not touch it. Say you're going much faster, turning left, right, up, down. The "ring" lags behind your movements, and now you've breached it either by speed or manuver, and the puffy ack hits you repeatedly.


How I would suggest fixing this:

The faster a con is, add a higher % of puffy ack to the REAR quadrant of the box around the plane. Less in front means that due to the delay of fire and burst, the con is less likely to be hit. Also, I would seriously suggest concentrating more ack closer to the center of the box and in the forward quadrant, the slower and more steady the con is. Back in AH1 the puffy ack used to be a threat to bombers.

Rather than randomly puffing code in the box, assign % of that ack to different parts of the box.


For a long time, however, I've never been hit by puffy ack that wasn't manned by somebody in a fleet 5" gun. My suggested correction would make puffy ack more of a nuisance for bombers. I don't want it to decimate them, but I really HATE that it never even touches them!


EDIT: If it's easier than assigning a % of ack to a part of the hit box, then simply move the hit box. Instead of always centering it on the plane, move it backwards the faster the planes goes, so that with the same random dispersion it the effect is still the same: the puffs start lagging behind instead of hitting you repeatedly.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 09:47:56 AM by Krusty »

Offline Soulyss

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Re: Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2008, 10:10:08 AM »
If I understand what you're saying is that... with the distances involved the and the travel time of the shells, that the timing is off.. at high speed the A/C effectively compresses the front half of the target "box" making any shells set to go off in that part zone have a higher % chance of actually hitting?

If you're not missing something, the logic here seems to make sense, maybe that instead of a box, (I'll assume here that the box is a cube).  As speed increases  the cube should rather elongate into a rectangle that follows the A/C?
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2008, 10:12:16 AM »
Something along those lines, yes.

Offline Bruv119

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Re: Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2008, 10:13:24 AM »
Gripe from me.

Please sort out puffy ack shooting through hills!

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Offline Elfie

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Re: Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2008, 10:14:22 AM »
Gripe from me.

Please sort out puffy ack shooting through hills!



I think HiTech said that was intentional? Although why he would make puffy ack shoot through hills is something I fail to comprehend.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2008, 10:19:54 AM »
I think HiTech said that was intentional? Although why he would make puffy ack shoot through hills is something I fail to comprehend.

think maybe he was mesith the time/space continuim? :D
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2008, 10:29:41 AM »
This isn't about the technical issues from shooting through hills. That can be highly annoying as well, but this is about ack not hitting slow steady bombers at 15k, but pinging me262s at 25k doing high speed manuvers to avoid ack.

I think they're 2 different issues, personally.

Offline Murdr

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Re: Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2008, 10:30:50 AM »
Shooting at planes the gun doesn't have a line of sight on...
Shooting at enemies while there are friendlies in the cube...

Sorry, but the way puffy ack works has left much to be desired for a long time.

Offline sunfan1121

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Re: Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2008, 10:35:46 AM »
Why wont it shoot under 3k?
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Offline hitech

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Re: Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2008, 11:06:31 AM »
Krusty what you describe is not how randomizer work. What you are saying is if you roll a dice  and change your guess as you roll the dice you have a higher chance of getting hit.  S turns increase the size of the box, or to describe it differently , Turns increase the size of the random number generated .

Gun shoot threw hills simply because of the range the Ack shoots. To do the collision checks along a 6 mile line is very expensive.

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Offline Rebel

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Re: Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2008, 11:14:59 AM »
Krusty what you describe is not how randomizer work. What you are saying is if you roll a dice  and change your guess as you roll the dice you have a higher chance of getting hit.  S turns increase the size of the box, or to describe it differently , Turns increase the size of the random number generated .

Gun shoot threw hills simply because of the range the Ack shoots. To do the collision checks along a 6 mile line is very expensive.

HiTech

Sounds like a 3 dimensional array or something around the flight path of the aircraft.  Is otto actively trying to "guess" where you go, or is it just choosing a random value inside the box to hit? 

I understand that the "box" around the  a/c grows with maneuvers- that makes total sense. 
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Offline Murdr

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Re: Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2008, 11:49:27 AM »

Gun shoot threw hills simply because of the range the Ack shoots. To do the collision checks along a 6 mile line is very expensive.

HiTech
Can't the players front end somehow report "we can't see each other, therefore you cannot shoot at me" so to speak?

Offline Krusty

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Re: Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2008, 12:34:01 PM »
Krusty what you describe is not how randomizer work. What you are saying is if you roll a dice  and change your guess as you roll the dice you have a higher chance of getting hit.  S turns increase the size of the box, or to describe it differently , Turns increase the size of the random number generated .

Gun shoot threw hills simply because of the range the Ack shoots. To do the collision checks along a 6 mile line is very expensive.

HiTech

The idea of increasing the box if you're turning, diving, climbing, or going faster, is to make the ack less likely to hit the target, correct?

The intent was to make the ack less effective?

Do you know why the opposite is often true? Why is it that I've never been damaged/shot down by puffy ack for as long I can recall in AH2,* but I have regularly been heavily damaged or simply killed while in a fast moving fighter? Is there a workaround to bring about the intended results?




*= I recall way back early in AH1 ack was more effective. I don't know when this changed, because I moved away from bombing for a while, then went back. When I went back ack was ineffective.

Offline blkmgc

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Re: Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2008, 12:42:17 PM »
Crank up the ack. And while your at it, make it friendly blind above say..20K.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Why puffy ack doesn't work.
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2008, 12:48:23 PM »
I just press the cloaking device button on my panel.... it's still in R&D though. Once I ended up in IL2 in my AH 38. When I actually de-cloaked that time my magaritas were melted too. This I will not tolerate.

Before this cloaking test I tried another trick. As in hunting in Alaska.... they say no need to worry about bears, just take someone along that runs slower than you... using this line of thought... when I dive through ack I always take someone slower. Seems to work to an extent.

R&D will resume....
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