Author Topic: When we run out of oil...  (Read 718 times)

Offline Angus

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When we run out of oil...
« on: March 26, 2008, 04:00:52 AM »
Then what will we do?
Been doing some study on biofuels lately, and stumbled across an old speculation, which has not been much in the spotlight recently.
It's Alfalfa, and the angle on how growing Nitrogen binding plants saves energy because of just that, as well as producing a lot of biomass.
Here is a bit:

"In UK, the best options for annual energy plantation crops would probably involve the use of grasses, lucerne, clover, or forage cereals. With total cultivation and harvesting costs at $700/ha/yr and fresh weight yield of 70 MT/ha/yr, the DM yield would be 15.75 MT/ha/yr and the output of gross energy 275 GJ/ha/yr. ($2.55 per GJ gross energy before transportation and storage and a minimum biogas cost of $8.75/GJ.) (Palz and Chartier, 1980). Shortly after the US energy crisis of 1973, Jim and Peggy Duke (1975) offered one simplistic scenario: What if, instead of making auto fuel from the fossilized remains of plants (oil and coal), we made it from fresh plant tissue? High-quality, low-pollution fuel is as available from fresh plants as gasoline is from oil. We contend that by growing plants with conversion to fuel in mind, America could become self-sufficient in energy, utilize some of its organic wastes to build soils, and achieve many other benefits. Assume we have 62.5 million acres of unused and marginal land available for energy farming. Now let us develop a concept we inherited from the American Indians—the intercropping of a legume like alfalfa with a cereal like corn, adding some organic matter like sewage sludge. Alfalfa, like most legumes, takes nitrogen from the atmosphere and puts it in the soil—nearly 200 pounds per acre. It would take nearly a barrel of oil to manufacture that much inorganic nitrogen fertilizer. Alfalfa grows well in the cool months, producing enough vegetation to yield the energy equivalent of 2 to 7 barrels of oil per acre. Basing estimates on average alfalfa hay yields, participants at the Fourth Annual Alfalfa Symposium concluded that we could get nearly a ton of leaf protein per acre from alfalfa. This would mean 55 million tons of protein from 62.5 million acres—about 10 times what Americans need in their diet. Residues remaining after protein extraction would yield the equivalent of 250 million barrels of oil in residues. This alone could cut gasoline imports significantly. If we fertilized with sewage sludge, our 62.5 million acres of alfalfa could probably meet President Ford's target import reduction of one million barrels a day, but also provide protein for the US with plenty for export. Duke (1981a) reports DM yields of 0–37 MT/ha/yr (24 in Bolivia, 11 in Czechoslovakia, 10–11 in Cyprus, 11 in Egypt, 7 in France, 6–9 in Germany, 8–11 in Hungary, 3–21 in Italy, 0–24 in New Zealand, 10–13 in Romania, 29 in Turkistan, 7–37 in USA, 2–21 in USSR, and 8–12 in Yugoslavia."

Interesting.
Anyone well informed on Alfalfa? I am planning to grow some this spring (Thereby being the first in the country), so all info is well received.
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Offline Nilsen

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Re: When we run out of oil...
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2008, 04:30:52 AM »
A solution to shortage of oil will present itself automaticly as prices rise. Options are plentiful but its gonna suck to be poor or a fan of gas guzzlers for a while.

Offline Holden McGroin

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Re: When we run out of oil...
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2008, 04:41:00 AM »
Now let us develop a concept we inherited from the American Indians—the intercropping of a legume like alfalfa with a cereal like corn, adding some organic matter like sewage sludge.

If you are not eating the corn but it is only for fuel, you may be OK.* In the Oregon anyway, sewage sludge cannot be used in food crops as the heavy metals, disease, etc. can't be pulled out of the mix.

Alfalfa grows well in the cool months, producing enough vegetation to yield the energy equivalent of 2 to 7 barrels of oil per acre.

Locally alfalfa also needs about 700 mm of water in a season too.  If you have that in rainfall, you're golden. otherwise irrigate.








*Or have different agricultural regulations, perhaps you are in someplace like Iceland.
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Offline SIG220

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Re: When we run out of oil...
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2008, 04:42:25 AM »
_____________________________ __


The only solution is a massive reduction in world population.   We cannot increase supply because it is finite.   Consequently, reducing demand is the only real solution.

If we took the world's population back to a level of around 1850, that would work very well.

A massive nuclear war is thus inevitable.   Those of us that manage to survive will have to get used to living without being able to play Aces High II.

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Offline FrodeMk3

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Re: When we run out of oil...
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2008, 05:14:51 AM »
_______________________________


The only solution is a massive reduction in world population.   We cannot increase supply because it is finite.   Consequently, reducing demand is the only real solution.

If we took the world's population back to a level of around 1850, that would work very well.

A massive nuclear war is thus inevitable.   Those of us that manage to survive will have to get used to living without being able to play Aces High II.

_____________________________ __

...and getting used to massive amounts' of background radiation...

Offline Eagler

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Re: When we run out of oil...
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2008, 06:28:21 AM »
by the time oil runs low, the oil barons will have the next fuel already to go and control just as they have the price of oil all of these years..
do you think it will be any other way?
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Offline MoeRon

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Re: When we run out of oil...
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2008, 06:44:25 AM »
Mr. President. It could easily be accomplished with a computer. And a computer could be set and programmed to accept factors from youth, health, sexual fertility, intelligence, and a cross section of necessary skills. Of course it would be absolutely vital that our top government and military men be included to foster and impart the required principles of leadership and tradition. Naturally, they would breed prodigiously, eh? There would bemuch time, and little to do. But ah with the proper breeding techniques and a ratio of say, ten females to each male, I would guess that they could then work their way back to the present gross national product within say, twenty years."
« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 06:51:42 AM by MoeRon »
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: When we run out of oil...
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2008, 08:22:21 AM »
We will never run out of oil ... like you've already explained: We can produce it. A recent Fürherbefehl from the EU forces member nations to increase the sale of biofuel at the pump by about one percent per year (I believe the 2010 target was a minimum of 5 %).
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Offline ChickenHawk

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Re: When we run out of oil...
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2008, 12:38:02 PM »
Anyone well informed on Alfalfa?

I bucked wet alfalfa hay bales once when I was a teenager.  Never again...
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Offline Neubob

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Re: When we run out of oil...
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2008, 12:40:36 PM »
Angus, unless you present this situation in the form of 'an ultimate what-if', I simply can't participate. Please amend accordingly. Until then, here's some alfalfa for you:


Offline Ripsnort

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Re: When we run out of oil...
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2008, 12:41:59 PM »
A solution to shortage of oil will present itself automaticly as prices rise. Options are plentiful but its gonna suck to be poor or a fan of gas guzzlers for a while.

And, the fastest growing industry in the world right now involves alternate energy sources, according to the UN. Its a 100 billion dollar industry in 2006 and growing.  :aok

Offline Nilsen

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Re: When we run out of oil...
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2008, 12:50:51 PM »
And im in, and have been for the last year  :)

Offline Ripsnort

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Re: When we run out of oil...
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2008, 12:55:42 PM »
And im in, and have been for the last year  :)
Ditto. My brother-in-law installs home windmill generators for roughly $12,000 USD that start paying for themselves after 6 years, and in most cases, you begin to sell power back to the power companies.  :aok  I might add that he's a conservation but we all know that evil conservatives are not environmentally friendly.. :D

Offline Nilsen

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Re: When we run out of oil...
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2008, 01:00:50 PM »
Im in as an investor, not user yet. I am thinking hard about pellets though.

Offline JB88

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Re: When we run out of oil...
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2008, 01:16:21 PM »
Angus, unless you present this situation in the form of 'an ultimate what-if', I simply can't participate. Please amend accordingly. Until then, here's some alfalfa for you:

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this thread is doomed.
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