Author Topic: humm big oil not making enough profit.. so they cut production  (Read 788 times)

Offline crockett

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Yep at a time with big oil making record profits and fuel at an all time high.. What does big oil decide to do? Cut production in the refineries to drive the price over $4/ gal. This means by summer time there wont be as much supply as needed so over $5/gal gas will be here.

http://money.excite.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top.jsp?news_id=ap-d8vlagfo1&

ah no price fixing here... just the free market right? 
"strafing"

Offline Holden McGroin

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Re: humm big oil not making enough profit.. so they cut production
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2008, 12:08:31 AM »
Did you read this part of the story you posted?

Quote
Gasoline supplies are 9 percent higher than a year ago.

and this part?

Quote
Investors shrugged off data showing that demand for gasoline fell 1.3 percent last week.
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Offline WWhiskey

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Re: humm big oil not making enough profit.. so they cut production
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2008, 05:41:37 AM »
looks to me like the people are finally starting to buckle and use a little less,
investors are not going to be happy when this thing turns around :rolleyes:
the people will only take so much before they will start to conserve, kinda like food or drugs for the elderly, only its gas or drugs :aok
Flying since tour 71.

Offline crockett

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Re: humm big oil not making enough profit.. so they cut production
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2008, 06:37:37 AM »
Did you read this part of the story you posted?

and this part?


Yea think that might just be because gas is at a all time high? So people can't aford to use as much. The problem will show during the summer when more fuel is burned.. We will end up with well over $5/gal gas because they are cutting production now. 
"strafing"

Offline crockett

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Re: humm big oil not making enough profit.. so they cut production
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2008, 06:39:40 AM »
looks to me like the people are finally starting to buckle and use a little less,
investors are not going to be happy when this thing turns around :rolleyes:
the people will only take so much before they will start to conserve, kinda like food or drugs for the elderly, only its gas or drugs :aok

Why wouldn't they be happy? It's set up so the less that is produced the more profit they make, so the refinery companies are giving them excatlly what they want more profit while screwing over the rest of us.
"strafing"

Offline Hornet33

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Re: humm big oil not making enough profit.. so they cut production
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2008, 07:42:53 AM »
You guys do realize that one of the MAJOR reasons gas prices are so high is because of all the "special" blend fuels that your local leaders have mandated in your areas. In the US there are over 200 special blend fuels required by select comunities, counties, and states. With only a handfull of refineries everytime they have to change production for a new blend, production halts for a period of time, which costs money. There was a study done, oh about a year ago discussing this and if regular unleaded was the ONLY gas being produced, the cost per gallon at that time would have been just over a dollar. Yet everyone wants ther own special fuel blend and that jacks the prices up for everyone because the refineries have to shut down everytime they change the blend for a production run. All this in the effort to be more "green". What a hoax.

After Katrina and the refineries down in the gulf coast were offline for those couple of months everyone thought gas prices would spike at over $4 a gallon and stay that way for years. The reason it didn't happen was because GW Bush stepped in and ordered the refineries that were online to suspend production of special blend fuels and only produce regular unleaded gas. Prices spiked for a week or so and then the price per gallon nationwide actually dropped below pre Katrina levels for several months. They stayed lower until the gulf refineries came back online and were able to produce the special blend fuels again. Then prices went back up.

Do some digging and you'll find in most cases that the political leaders in those areas that mandate special blend fuels are major stock holders in the oil companies. They are passing these mandates because doing so puts money in their personal pockets by taking it from you at the pump. I wont even go into the amount of tax we have to pay for gas, but everyone goes along with the special blend fuel ideas because it makes them feel better about doing something for the enviroment, when in reality it's not making any differance at all.

I'll try and find the link to the report I read and post it. Very interesting reading. If I'm not mistaken the guy who wrote the report was an accountant with BP.
AHII Con 2006, HiTech, "This game is all about pissing off the other guy!!"

Offline Holden McGroin

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Re: humm big oil not making enough profit.. so they cut production
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2008, 07:49:16 AM »
Yea think that might just be because gas is at a all time high? So people can't aford to use as much. The problem will show during the summer when more fuel is burned.. We will end up with well over $5/gal gas because they are cutting production now. 

I think that if your inventory is 9% higher than it was last year, cutting production to reduce that inventory might just be reasonable.  Producing more than is required means you either have to grow your inventory or just pour it out on the ground.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Nashwan

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Re: humm big oil not making enough profit.. so they cut production
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2008, 07:59:46 AM »
Quote
Yep at a time with big oil making record profits and fuel at an all time high.. What does big oil decide to do? Cut production in the refineries to drive the price over $4/ gal.

Gasoline prices in the US have been too low for months. They haven't kept place with the price of crude oil. That has squeezed the refineries so much they are barely making a profit. It couldn't last.

US oil prices are going to go up, but not because of the refiners, or "big oil". They are going up because the world price of crude has gone up, and US gasoline prices haven't kept pace.

The article says as much:

Quote
In part, that's because refinery activity dropped when analysts had expected an increase. Analysts said some refiners are cutting gasoline production due to low profit margins.

The price of gasoline in the US needs to rise to make refining it worthwhile. It's nothing to do with the refineries, it's because the raw material (crude) is so expensive.

Offline lazs2

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Re: humm big oil not making enough profit.. so they cut production
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2008, 08:04:29 AM »
It is all three.. It is the price of crude and it is the special blend nightmare that is the whim of the EPA and it is the high tax for state, local and feds.

lazs

Offline LePaul

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Re: humm big oil not making enough profit.. so they cut production
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2008, 08:07:21 AM »
You realize if big oil gets taxed as hard as the left would like....those financial burdens get passed along to the consumer, right?


Offline Charon

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Re: humm big oil not making enough profit.. so they cut production
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2008, 10:42:33 AM »
 
Quote
Why wouldn't they be happy? It's set up so the less that is produced the more profit they make, so the refinery companies are giving them exactly what they want more profit while screwing over the rest of us.

Crockett, please outline for us the relative profitability of an independent refiner marketer (from the refining business) and chart that back to, say, 1973. Perhaps you could also run a graph of WTI in relationship to the value of the dollar back to about 2000. Give me your feedback on what the latest move to drop interest rates will produce relative to oil prices. Look also at the returns and investment activity relative to refining operations charted back until at least 1973.
Consider the fact that refining carries with it a tremendous overhead, and that refining profits are not that great on a gallon of gasoline. For example, March 3 08 Califoirnia:

Cost of a gallon of gas: $3.46
Distribution Costs, Marketing Costs and Profits (the retailer gross profits): $0.07
Curde oil costs and profits (OPEC, E&P, etc.): $2.44
Refinery Cost and Profits: $0.31
Total state and federal fees and taxes: $0.61

Now, as you can see refining is not a major profit center in that gallon of gasoline. It also carries with it a tremendous amount of overhead, and faces import competition. When times are bad for refiners, and they will be again, that sector sees little investment. Refining is so marginal that most major integrated oil companies have moved at least some extent away from refining. They are sprinting away from any direct involvement at the retail level. Long term, the oil sector, even at the E&P level is a marginal investment. Of course, nobody much cares with prices are at $10 to $15 per bbl because of the market and world conditions and a drop in demand, and then people start investing in things like Amazon.com instead of ExxonMobil or Valero. However, these oil companies and refiners know that investing in overcapacity is a really bad move, because the slow times will come again. Of course we could nationalize domestic refining (easier than the whole multinational oil industry itself). The net result, though, would be higher gasoline prices when overall crude prices drop, less efficiency and more waste – such as significant idle capacity (paid for by taxpayer support) -- and likely comparable gasoline to higher gasoline prices in general even during “shock” periods relative to world markets since we can’t control the vast majority of the price of a gallon of gasoline -- the cuude oil component.

I just spoke with Peter Beutel of Cameron Hanover. I've interviewed him in the past and gave him a call again after coming across a Time Magazine article from 1987 on the oil glut in place at that time where he was quoted. It showed some deeper insight (for me) in how the process works. Here’s a link to that 87 article and his quote at the end of the article:

Quote
Enjoy Now, Pay Later

To everyone who has bitter memories of the oil shocks of the 1970s, when the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries drove oil prices to intolerable heights, today's bargain-basement values seem like sweet vengeance indeed. The U.S. has learned once again to love cheap energy, and why not? Gasoline and home-heating fuels are in plentiful supply. Inexpensive oil helped keep * inflation last year at its lowest level in 25 years, sent interest rates to nine-year troughs and aided in sustaining a four-year-old economic expansion.
But the thrill of cheap energy may prove perilously intoxicating. As U.S. energy consumption increases, imports are reaching alarming levels. At the same time, depressed oil prices have caused U.S. petroleum production and exploration to dwindle dangerously. This means, experts caution, that America is setting a time bomb. The scary possibility is that by the mid-1990s, as the U.S. becomes dependent on foreign oil for more and more of its consumption, OPEC could suddenly and steeply raise prices, throwing the economy into chaos. Warns Interior Secretary Donald Hodel: "OPEC is being placed back in the driver's seat. The U.S. is being set up for a majoroil-price shock."

…The national debate over how the U.S. can best stave off a future energy crisis is just beginning. Peter Beutel, an analyst with Elders Futures, a major Wall Street oil-trading firm, believes that despite America's current infatuation with cheap oil, most people can readily recall what it means to suffer through an energy shortage. Says Beutel: "We were caught napping twice. We would have to be extraordinarily foolish to fall into the same trap again." Maybe so. This much is certain: the oil shocks of the 1970s came as a complete surprise. The next one will not.

Duh. The first shock, an artificial one, hit with Gulf War 1. The reactions to those high prices resulted in the follow up glut that lasted until 2001 with 9/11. Katrina and 9/11 aside, the current shock is fallout from the 1990s glut in the convoluted game played between supply and demand with OPEC in the middle, china on the side and our latest SUV fetish playing its role. The commodities market is the foundation. Stability does not factor into the energy markets to any great extend, unfortunately. It could, potentially, but human behavior dictates it wont.

And now, we have the added devaluation of the dollar that eats up about $30 of a barrel of crude, and dropping interest rates in the US will further negatively impact the US price of crude. We are digging our own hole with those relative to the world. Basically, when oil is super cheap production and capacity are brought offline, investment money goes into other sectors and CONSUMER behavior changes. Walk into a parking lot in 1883 and what you would see would be dramatically different from the same lot in 1997 but perhaps not to what you will see in 2010. If you walked into a parking lot in 1997 and saw the same efficient, power neutered vehicles from 1983 and we had continued make common sense reductions in overall energy usage than even with globalization we would not likely be feeling the "pain" we are feeling today. Similarly, if the Middle East was pacified we would be in a much more relaxed pricing situation.

Beutel actually predicts a dramatic drop in oil prices 4-8 years down the road. Guess what, unless a lot of the new alternative energy companies have properly hedged at current prices they will be toast. Tar sands and ethanol can make sense at $60+ bbl of oil (in some cases with a lot of taxpayer help), but not at $20 or $10. So bye, bye. Like they said in The Right Stuff, it's funding that makes the rocket fly, not engineering or science. No profits, no alternative energy. There is only so much artificial market share we can create through taxpayer subsidies. But then no one will give a poop. Woo Hoo, cheap oil! I bet that will last forever! Time to drop the hybrid again for the next road monster, perhaps a full retro return to the tailfin cars of the 1950s this time. And the cycle will continue.

Charon
« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 10:53:46 AM by Charon »

Offline lasersailor184

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Re: humm big oil not making enough profit.. so they cut production
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2008, 10:46:50 AM »
Crockett always makes the same mistake.  He assumes that with the price being higher, the same amount of units will be sold.




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Offline Ripsnort

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Re: humm big oil not making enough profit.. so they cut production
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2008, 10:49:24 AM »
Refineries are systematically shut down on a schedule every spring for maintenance and EPA standards and regulations as well as OSHA requirements.

*yawn*


Offline GtoRA2

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Re: humm big oil not making enough profit.. so they cut production
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2008, 12:14:04 PM »

Crockett, please outline for us the relative profitability of an independent refiner marketer (from the refining business) and chart that back to, say, 1973. Perhaps you could also run a graph of WTI in relationship to the value of the dollar back to about 2000. Give me your feedback on what the latest move to drop interest rates will produce relative to oil prices. Look also at the returns and investment activity relative to refining operations charted back until at least 1973.
Consider the fact that refining carries with it a tremendous overhead, and that refining profits are not that great on a gallon of gasoline. For example, March 3 08 Califoirnia:

Cost of a gallon of gas: $3.46
Distribution Costs, Marketing Costs and Profits (the retailer gross profits): $0.07
Curde oil costs and profits (OPEC, E&P, etc.): $2.44
Refinery Cost and Profits: $0.31
Total state and federal fees and taxes: $0.61

Now, as you can see refining is not a major profit center in that gallon of gasoline. It also carries with it a tremendous amount of overhead, and faces import competition. When times are bad for refiners, and they will be again, that sector sees little investment. Refining is so marginal that most major integrated oil companies have moved at least some extent away from refining. They are sprinting away from any direct involvement at the retail level. Long term, the oil sector, even at the E&P level is a marginal investment. Of course, nobody much cares with prices are at $10 to $15 per bbl because of the market and world conditions and a drop in demand, and then people start investing in things like Amazon.com instead of ExxonMobil or Valero. However, these oil companies and refiners know that investing in overcapacity is a really bad move, because the slow times will come again. Of course we could nationalize domestic refining (easier than the whole multinational oil industry itself). The net result, though, would be higher gasoline prices when overall crude prices drop, less efficiency and more waste – such as significant idle capacity (paid for by taxpayer support) -- and likely comparable gasoline to higher gasoline prices in general even during “shock” periods relative to world markets since we can’t control the vast majority of the price of a gallon of gasoline -- the cuude oil component.

I just spoke with Peter Beutel of Cameron Hanover. I've interviewed him in the past and gave him a call again after coming across a Time Magazine article from 1987 on the oil glut in place at that time where he was quoted. It showed some deeper insight (for me) in how the process works. Here’s a link to that 87 article and his quote at the end of the article:

Duh. The first shock, an artificial one, hit with Gulf War 1. The reactions to those high prices resulted in the follow up glut that lasted until 2001 with 9/11. Katrina and 9/11 aside, the current shock is fallout from the 1990s glut in the convoluted game played between supply and demand with OPEC in the middle, china on the side and our latest SUV fetish playing its role. The commodities market is the foundation. Stability does not factor into the energy markets to any great extend, unfortunately. It could, potentially, but human behavior dictates it wont.

And now, we have the added devaluation of the dollar that eats up about $30 of a barrel of crude, and dropping interest rates in the US will further negatively impact the US price of crude. We are digging our own hole with those relative to the world. Basically, when oil is super cheap production and capacity are brought offline, investment money goes into other sectors and CONSUMER behavior changes. Walk into a parking lot in 1883 and what you would see would be dramatically different from the same lot in 1997 but perhaps not to what you will see in 2010. If you walked into a parking lot in 1997 and saw the same efficient, power neutered vehicles from 1983 and we had continued make common sense reductions in overall energy usage than even with globalization we would not likely be feeling the "pain" we are feeling today. Similarly, if the Middle East was pacified we would be in a much more relaxed pricing situation.

Beutel actually predicts a dramatic drop in oil prices 4-8 years down the road. Guess what, unless a lot of the new alternative energy companies have properly hedged at current prices they will be toast. Tar sands and ethanol can make sense at $60+ bbl of oil (in some cases with a lot of taxpayer help), but not at $20 or $10. So bye, bye. Like they said in The Right Stuff, it's funding that makes the rocket fly, not engineering or science. No profits, no alternative energy. There is only so much artificial market share we can create through taxpayer subsidies. But then no one will give a poop. Woo Hoo, cheap oil! I bet that will last forever! Time to drop the hybrid again for the next road monster, perhaps a full retro return to the tailfin cars of the 1950s this time. And the cycle will continue.

Charon

Charon
 Awesome post.  Very interesting.