Flag Desecration.....should it be outlawed?

[beddog]

New Zealand doesn't allow immigration- I checked.

LOL  good thing for New Zealand.    

[Maverick]

So NZ is racist now since they don't allow immigration...............
























 

[SaburoS]

    
"Flag Desecration.....should it be outlawed?"

NO!
It may be in poor taste or get others really pissed, but if the flag burner burned their own flag, on their own or public property, that the physical burning act wasn't a threat, then let them burn it.
Doesn't mean that I have to agree with them or like it.
Kind of the same with the KKK or other white supremest group having a public march holding signs putting down Jews or Blacks.
True freedom protects the offensive, ugly, and stupid as well. If we chip away at that, then we start stripping away our true freedoms.

[Rich46yo]

Yes, it should be a felony with garunteed prison time.

[Charon]

Nothing much more really to say, except this is how we lose freedom.

Just to repeat. A lot of people don't like me owning a gun. A lot of people don't like when some moron burns a flag because he believes meat is murder (perhaps with full sincerity and not just to get laid by the cute redhead holding he sign next to him). Plenty of people (the Anti-Defamation League springs to mind, as an example) don't believe hate groups should be allowed to express their opinions on the internet. Plenty of people would go along with warrantless searches and the removal of Miranda to get tough on crime. And there are certainly those who wouldn't stop at flag burning but strongly believe that any criticism of the leader or government in a time of war is treason.

I would rather err on the side of freedom. I can’t imagine a circumstance where, in my lifetime, burning a flag has been justified. Most seem to be empty headed gestures likely focused on enhancing the burner’s social status among his or her empty headed peers. Most of the events being protested took place fully within the confines of our functioning political system. If you were upset you could perhaps fly a flag upside down, or burn Carter or Clinton or Bush in effigy or just carry a sign that would perhaps open a fence setters mind and be more logically appropriate.

But, that does not mean the day will never come where we live under a totalitarian state. Perhaps a George Bush type, or maybe a Ted Kennedy – take your pick. Nuclear terrorism, a pandemic, full economic collapse – none beyond the scope of possibility and the interim measures become more permanent, and enough people and enough of the military support the idea of extended martial law, etc.  That’s really how dictatorships develop and sustain. There has to be at least some, but most likely a majority of support from the population. Totalitarian regeims primarily suck if you are a minority or independent thinker, etc. And, at that point, once it has slipped that far down the slope, you’re probably more worried about saying something against the government in front of your neighbors or children than giving thought to any public protest.

We are already slipping so readily away from the BOR in so many areas today, facilitated by the shocking inattention of the American people. So, I’ll tolerate some moron burning the flag for as long as the flag represents freedom. After that, it would be hard to care either way.

It's no surprise that Ron Paul has a common sense view on the issue:

Unfortunately, Congress has long since disregarded the original intent of the Founders and has written a lot of laws regulating private property and private conduct. But I would ask my colleagues to remember that every time we write a law to control private behavior, we imply that somebody has to arrive with a gun, because if you desecrate the flag, you have to punish that person. So how do you do that? You send an agent of the government, perhaps an employee of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Flags, to arrest him. This is in many ways patriotism with a gun – if your actions do not fit the official definition of a "patriot,'' we will send somebody to arrest you.

Fortunately, Congress has models of flag desecration laws. For example, Saddam Hussein made desecration of the Iraq flag a criminal offense punishable by up to 10 years in prison.

It is assumed that many in the military support this amendment, but in fact there are veterans who have been great heroes in war on both sides of this issue. I would like to quote a past national commander of the American Legion, Keith Kreul. He said: "Our Nation was not founded on devotion to symbolic idols, but on principles, beliefs and ideals expressed in the Constitution and its Bill of Rights. American veterans who have protected our banner in battle have not done so to protect a golden calf. Instead, they carried the banner forward with reverence for what it represents, our beliefs and freedom for all. Therein lies the beauty of our flag. A patriot cannot be created by legislation."

Secretary of State, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and two-time winner of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, Colin Powell has also expressed opposition to amending the constitution in this manner: "I would not amend that great shield of democracy to hammer out a few miscreants. The flag will be flying proudly long after they have slunk away."

Mr. Speaker, this amendment will not even reach the majority of cases of flag burning. When we see flag burning on television, it is usually not American citizens, but foreigners who have strong objections to what we do overseas, burning the flag. This is what I see on television and it is the conduct that most angers me.

One of the very first laws that Red China passed upon assuming control of Hong Kong was to make flag burning illegal. Since that time, they have prosecuted some individuals for flag burning. Our State Department keeps records of how often the Red Chinese persecute people for burning the Chinese flag, as it considers those prosecutions an example of how the Red Chinese violate human rights. Those violations are used against Red China in the argument that they should not have most-favored-nation status. There is just a bit of hypocrisy among those members who claim this amendment does not interfere with fundamental liberties, yet are critical of Red China for punishing those who burn the Chinese flag.

Charon

[Airhead]

Looks like those of you who want to jail flag burners should immigrate to Red China...they seem to agree with your viewpoint on civil rights.

 

[john9001]

Looks like those of you who want to jail flag burners should immigrate to Red China...they seem to agree with your viewpoint on civil rights.

 

or they could go to Iran, they burn American flags there all the time. I did not know Iran had a first amendment.

[Maverick]

Burning the US flag in Iran would be the same as burning the flag of say Ethiopia in the US. It's not the same venue. If you want to make a more acurate analogy you should have the protester in iran burning say a picture of mohammed. That would incite several there just like burning a flag would in the US.

I said it before but I'll clarify it again. I don't like burning the flag and it upsets me quite a bit. I do, however, believe that it should not be a crime to do so as it is a valid expression of speech against a government. That is what the founding fathers wanted to preserve. I may not like it but to paraphrase a famous speech I must defend their right to do so.


I do think that flag burning should also be a reasonable defense to assaulting the flag burner by another who was offended but I seriously doubt it is really possible.

[moot]

" There is just a bit of hypocrisy among those members who claim this amendment does not interfere with fundamental liberties, yet are critical of Red China for punishing those who burn the Chinese flag."

But only a bit :P

[TwentyFo]

How to make a lot of money quickly.

Step 1: Get an American Flag
Step 2: Go to the busiest intersection in town.
Step 3: Light the flag on fire.
Step 4: Get severly beaten.
Step 5: SUE, SUE, SUE

[acfireguy26]

 I see nothing in this definition that relates to anything but the spoken or gestured word. So no, I do not think it should be legal to burn our nations flag.

speech
–noun 1. the faculty or power of speaking; oral communication; ability to express one's thoughts and emotions by speech sounds and gesture: Losing her speech made her feel isolated from humanity. 
2. the act of speaking: He expresses himself better in speech than in writing. 
3. something that is spoken; an utterance, remark, or declaration: We waited for some speech that would indicate her true feelings. 
4. a form of communication in spoken language, made by a speaker before an audience for a given purpose: a fiery speech. 
5. any single utterance of an actor in the course of a play, motion picture, etc. 
6. the form of utterance characteristic of a particular people or region; a language or dialect. 
7. manner of speaking, as of a person: Your slovenly speech is holding back your career. 
8. a field of study devoted to the theory and practice of oral communication. 


Felt like I probably needed to go ahead and add this definition in also.

ges·ture   
–noun 1. a movement or position of the hand, arm, body, head, or face that is expressive of an idea, opinion, emotion, etc.: the gestures of an orator; a threatening gesture. 
2. the use of such movements to express thought, emotion, etc. 
3. any action, courtesy, communication, etc., intended for effect or as a formality; considered expression; demonstration: a gesture of friendship. 
–verb (used without object) 4. to make or use a gesture or gestures. 
–verb (used with object) 5. to express by a gesture or gestures. 

[Chairboy]

Acfireguy26, so you're saying that there is no freedom of the press?  I don't see written communication covered there in your definitons, by your logic, it is also unprotected.  What's interesting is that the burning of a flag is actually covered by the third definition of gesture you provided. 

It's ironic, you simultaneously decried written freedom while bolstering the case of those who disagree with your assertion.  If you were a US pilot in WWII, this might get you the Iron Cross. 

[acfireguy26]

What's interesting is that the burning of a flag is actually covered by the third definition of gesture you provided. 

wrong

[moot]

ges·ture   
–noun 1. a movement or position of the hand, arm, body, head, or face that is expressive of an idea, opinion, emotion, etc.: the gestures of an orator; a threatening gesture. 
2. the use of such movements to express thought, emotion, etc. 
3. any action, courtesy, communication, etc., intended for effect or as a formality; considered expression; demonstration: a gesture of friendship. 
–verb (used without object) 4. to make or use a gesture or gestures. 
–verb (used with object) 5. to express by a gesture or gestures. 

[john9001]

so if i punched a flag burner i would be making a "ges-ture" of my dissatisfaction of their political views?

sounds OK by me.