Inverted Merge?

[Stoney]

Lately I've seen a rash of pilots that want to go into the merge with me inverted.  Typically, they're just a bit higher than I and flop over on their back to pull nose down.  Typically it precedes an easily avoided HO shot from them, but my question is this:

Why in the heck do they do that?  Seems to me its a waste and poor choice of ACM.  Perhaps some of the trainers can either disabuse me of this notion, or confirm that I'm correct.

[Scotch]

I see a lot of people doing this too. I think most of them are just coming in from alt and trying to get a guns solution (HO).

Very occasionally you may see me doing something like this in the DA. I'm usually just trying something different, partly because I'm bored, and partly because I'm trying to spice things up, or throw my opponent off hehe.

[Rolex]

Maybe we'll get someone who does it to answer up in here. Maybe they think that it gives them a chance to pull positive g's for a shot when their opponent dives under them? Or maybe it's just fun to fly inverted?

I don't know of any advantage from doing it on an initial merge.

[Scotch]

To elaborate, I've done it very few times as a lead turn of sorts, to catch them climbing on their standard immel. It is usually not worth it.

+drunk

[Spatula]

I cant see any point to it at all except perhaps to keep an eye on the bogey as they pass under you?? Plus as Rolex mentioned maybe the positive G deflection shot option? But i can see a huge downside to it. If they continue a split-S style reversal, they are all yours for the taking. A simple barrel-roll defense (rolled over on its side) works a treat:
 - Ensure you're under them and pull up 60-70 degrees on the merge (you see em inverted).
 - roll 180 deg.
 - this will allow you to see em out the top-rear of your canopy. If they commit to a split-S to try pull onto your six, you know you have em. If not, they are simply diving away - no threat to you.
 - If they're split-S'ing you just need to barrel-roll back down onto their 6 as they overshoot. They're going with God's G and picking up speed, you're against god's G and loosing speed. You will easily cause an overshoot in this situation.
 - shoot at em as you bring nose to bare.
 - taunt on 200.

[mondego]

My guess is because they're mimicking the first manuever the AI does in the offline practice mission. The newer pilots probably have difficulty beating it, so they assume it's a good first move.

[uberslet]

im not sure if someone has mentioned this or not, but when i merge, i climb back up. if the person is inverted, and lets say im in the plane not inverted, i would just have to climb up, then they would have to pulling -G's or roll over, then climb up, giving me a better situation, right? im not saying i do go inverted in intial merge, im just stating what would happen if i was flying.

[mechanic]

here is a short film:

http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/duel_3.ahf

Is this what you are talking about?

 This here is an attempt to force the fight low and slow. it declares to the opponent that you are not going to conserve your E and can sometimes fill them with a little false confidence and convince them to blow thier own Energy and attack you. with barbossa it is just one of hundreds of fights and this 'trick' aspect does not work like it does on those unsuspecting engagements. he knows me and does not fall for these traps very often.
 mostly i would agree with what Scotch says, boredom or random creativity.

[hammer]

... they think that it gives them a chance to pull positive g's for a shot when their opponent dives under them? ...

That's it in a nutshell. It's a part of the "pipper on target and pull the trigger" method that many people fly. It's a "wow! I could've had a V8" moment when they realize what a disadvantage this puts them in.

Regards,

Hammer

[Yossarian]

I think I do this...if I know what you mean, I do generally try and keep my nose pointed at my opponent.

What are the alternatives to trying to keep you gunsight on your opponent (usually)?

<S>

Yossarian

[hammer]

I think I do this...if I know what you mean, I do generally try and keep my nose pointed at my opponent.

What are the alternatives to trying to keep you gunsight on your opponent (usually)?

<S>

Yossarian

Remeber your goal is to have your gunsight on your opponent with a good shot opportunity while preventing your opponent from doing the same to you. Keeping your gunsight on your opponent all the time can actually be detrimental to this goal. What you want to do is maneuver in such a way that you bring your guns to bear inside gun range with the opportunity to actually track your target. As your gunnery improves, you can accept more snap shots, but for now think getting on his 6.

In the specific example given above (the inverted merge), what has most likely happened is two opponents approached each other at roughly co-alt. One dove a bit to pick up some extra energy. The other remained level then rolled inverted thinking he would pull positive Gs and go for a quick shot opportunity. The problem is the inverted guy not only has to dive, but he has to keep on diving at least until he rolls back upright and, more often, he keeps going through an entire split-S which puts him at a distinct disadvantage. Add to this the low percentage shot he got (and easily dodged) and it's a losing situation.

See Rocketman's Mastering the Merge Part 1 for some info on co-alt merges and why the first guy may have dove to gain energy.

Regards,

Hammer

[Stoney]

The most typical setup for the merge I've been experiencing lately is me at a medium altitude--say 10-12K, with an enemy around 1-2K above me, with us both approaching the other from the 12 o'clock position.  At a distance, and before we merge, say around 1.0-2.0 icon range, I see him roll inverted, and pull into me.  Most of the time, we're both at a combat cruise speed, so both aircraft are carrying a decent amount of energy.  They always pull for the HO shot, and undoubtedly miss as I jink the HO, then pull up in a zoom.  At this point, most of the time they either roll back and extend away behind me or pull through and complete the split-s and wind up underneath me.  Either way, it always seemed to me, they blow they're opportunity to shoot me down.  As I'm typically in a Jug, if they split-s, I can catch them in a dive if so inclined.

My point in asking the question was to determine if there was any advantage at all in them approaching the merge inverted like that.

[uberslet]

...It's a "wow! I could've had a V8" moment when they realize what a disadvantage this puts them in.

LMAO!

[hammer]

...My point in asking the question was to determine if there was any advantage at all in them approaching the merge inverted like that.

There are two things that might be considered advantages:

1) They might get an initial snap-shot.

2) The are initiating a lead-turn and have gained some initial angles.

The negatives to this approach far out-weigh the positives, though.  (unless they make the shot!  )

Regards,

Hammer

[Max]

I've tried the inverted pounce in a Typhoon, mainly because of the sluggishness of the Tiffie's roll rate. The goal is to hang like a buzzard about 3-4k above, hoping the lower guys bleeds e trying to get up. When he's 2k under I roll inverted, push my nose up as long as I can and wait for the stall or retreat. When I've got his 6, I pounce. As Hammer points out, it's dicey and my success is 50-50. It's easy to collide with the target and the energy advantage goes to hell in a hand-basket.