Author Topic: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?  (Read 9315 times)

Offline humble

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2008, 08:52:28 PM »
The problem is putting things in a historical context thats appropriate. A carrier force isnt really interchangeable with a land based one. If we look at the real role of an airforce in a war its the forward projection of force above and beyond all else. Only the US really evolved the ability to execute long range percision bombing. Had a war between the US and Russia evolved in 1946 the US would have handily destroyed soviet infrastructure. Tactically you can make an arguement for every airforce and even view the US planes as somewhat inferior...until you realize we were never pressed since our airforce was clearly dominant in its intended role...

Had we needed it the F7F could have been in service for D-day, the P-51D could have had 4 x 20mm or the F6F could have been in ETO service in a 2 x 20mm 4 x .50 option. The best axis plane of the war (fighter) was the G.55 {might just be the best 1943 design of the war period}. Put a late war 109K-4 engine in a G.55 and you'd have a monster able to beat anything in the game I think.

Back on task, you need to execute a strategic bombing campaign, provide tactical fighter bomber offense and local fighter defense, true tactical bombing and ground target/troop/supply interdiction & defend a strategic bomber campaign both theatre wide and at point of attack.


As configured the P-51's wouldnt fair all that well vs the buffs they were escorting (especially vs P-51 escorts). The spitXIV is actually a better high alt bomber interceptor then the 109K. Hog certainly could replace the P-38 but I think the 38 would be more versital in such a limited plane set.

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Offline Sikboy

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2008, 09:15:25 PM »
I disagree with what appears to be the assertion that strategic bombing is the primary method of projecting force. I know that you didn't say that directly, but it seems implied. I don't want to branch off into an ancilary argument on that point though.

I guess my point would be that Historic context is irrelevant. We don't know what our force needs are going to be, so we try to project to cover any eventuality. Most everyone recognized Strat bombing by selecting a heavy buff and an escort for it. Because that is how the US developed our force structure, most went with US hardware for that mission.

As for the K4 and Spit XIV, I haven't played since the new spits came out (or the K4 for that matter, but I did have a bit of G-14 stick time), but by the numbers they look like a wash: http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php

But taking out the historic context was part of the reason for moving the date forward to 1941: Before everyone knew how it was going to shake out. Though upon reflection, I probably should have made it 1939 instead.

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Offline Lumpy

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2008, 09:27:25 PM »
You'll have to take everything Humble says with a rather large pinch of salt. He's got his USAF beer goggles on, as always.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

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Offline humble

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2008, 10:21:01 PM »
Not at all...

Facts are facts....nothing more or less.

1st, why did germany lose WW2...the answer lies in 1940 not later. It had the best tactical air land & sea forces in the world bar none. however they were all tactical in nature except one. It's only true strategic force was its submarine force, which almost was enough to sneak out a win. It's shortcomings were exposed early in 2 specific incidents...

It's total failure during the BOB when it did not have sufficient range in its tactical airforce or navy to handle a 26 mile stretch of water. This was compounded by the russians ability to break down and transport entire factories beyond the range of german airpower. At this point in 1941 the war was over, germany had no strategic capability to attack and was limited by its tactical reach.

Prior to WW2 the biggest strategic advances were Road (Roman), Sail (Phoenicians/Greeks), Rail (not really sure on this one). From a military perspective these all delt with the transport of men and material. As important as the Roman military structure was, the real evolution was the integration of a military engineering component...logistics win wars...period.

As we move forward the next component is really firepower. While many would view gun powder as the key evolution the real epiphany occured in 1138 at the battle of standard. 275+ years later the seed planted in 1138 led to one of the most far reaching changes in warfare with the battle of Agincourt in 1415. This really laid the groundwork for combined arms warfare, Artillery and a host of tactical inovations 200 yrs before gun powder appeared.

WW1 was really the last true tactical war. While Germany studied and prepared for a 2nd tactical war and France prepared for a war of defense and attrition the US and Japan squared off over manifest destiny. Both viewed war over a distance of thousands of miles and with a focus on strategic assets and long range projection of power and interdiction of enemy forces. Accordingly both evolved strong navies with significant capital ships, intrinsic airpower & exceptional logistic capability combined with strong submarine and escort capability (England suprisingly had a large but tactically oriented navy which cost it dearly early in the war).

US geographic isolation led to a focus on the strategic elements of warfare. No other nation had the raw capability to project men and material in great quanity over vast distances. Contrast that with Germanys inability to force the British from Malta or supply the Afrika korps...

Had Japan not invaded Pearl harbor the US could have invaded Sicily very easily in 1942 by itself and France/Italy by mid 1943. No other nation on earht had that type of capability to project forces. As a general rule US planes flew further, faster and delivered more ords then any other equivelent plane.




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Offline Lumpy

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2008, 10:40:17 PM »
Here he goes again...
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2008, 10:58:17 PM »
True, but I'm more wondering what people would pick in the following situation, not in a specific historical situation.  You and another country are going to go at it in a WWII-style war for world domination.  You each can pick whatever aircraft you want.  The war may end up with you on the defensive (if you are losing) or you on the offensive and covering more territory (if you are winning).  It might be Russian/German style of fighting if you end up taking over part of central Asia and if your tactics end up being like what the Russians used; or it might be US/IJN/IJAAF style of fighting if you end up taking over portions of the Pacific; or anything in between.  You only get to pick aircraft at the start, but you don't know how it will end up -- that is to be determined depending on how the war goes.  What would you pick as aircraft?  Basically, head to head, all other things being equal for each side other than choices of aircraft, what would you pick?

Ok, without know what kind of theatre from WWII our war will be like, my list is:

B-24
La-7 (just to piss you guys off, I'm the first person to list it) :P
P-47N (doubles as high altitude escort fighter and mud-mover)
Ju-88  :O (Because it carries 2 torpedos, which might come in handy)
F4U-1D (the best unperked carrier plane)

I will win the war. :rock
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Offline EskimoJoe

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2008, 11:16:41 PM »
I will win the war. :rock
That's what you think...Until one of my F-15's Air to Air missiles obliterates you!  :lol
Put a +1 on your geekness atribute  :aok

Offline Guppy35

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2008, 11:51:55 PM »
Seems to me you have to look at it in terms of either defense or offense which is why i left the 109s and Spits off my list.  Range is a huge issue, and loiter time.  I'd rather intercept with something that has more range then needed for that job, then have to use a short range bird for long range escort should my AF need it.

The F6F on my list can fill the ground attack job from land bases if needed and because it's a radial bird, it should be able to survive better in that job then the 51s.  And if I need a carrier bird it does the job well and is an easier bird to handle then the Corsairs which is why I chose the F6F although the Corsair would be interchangable

Mossie fills in nice to anti-shipping/recce/long range fighter/intruder/night fighter/bomber.  If I'm limited to 5 planes I want the most bang for my buck.

38 is the same thing. Recce/fighter/fighter bomber/interceptor  and with range

51 covers that as well

17 gives me a bird to go long with escorts if I need a strategic bombing campaign.

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Offline humble

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2008, 12:17:00 AM »
Here he goes again...

The B-17 entered US service in 1937 and was completely deployed by the end of 1938. As a point of arguement lets give the luftwaffe those B-17s for the BOB. The 110's actually had better performance at altitude then the british hurricanes and spitfires did and a range of roughly 1500 miles. So the germans would have been operating a strategic airforce from bases beyond the range of british fighters and screened by 109 bases. The 109's would have been completely free of any escort duties and the 110's would have been operating at higher alts where they had equal or better performance to the british planes who were attempting to intercept B-17s at 26K+ with .303 armed fighters. As british losses mounted and manufacturing, infrastructure, supply and morale were attrited german tactical bombers could attack targets of opportunity and 110's would be able (with there much greater range) to sweep down on british fighters attempting to land and rearm after staging and then attacking the buffs. England would have lost both the BOB and the war in 90 days had the germans had just a few hundred B-17's.

The germans certainly had the capability to build an equivelent plane, they just didnt see the need. If they had WW2 would have ended before the US ever couldhave gotten involved...

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Offline Lumpy

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2008, 01:47:35 AM »
Less than a hundred B-17 had been made by the time of the BoB, and those early B-17 B and C were far from as effective as the later F and G models. The RAF were the first to use the B-17 in combat and they were so unimpressed with the performance that the B-17 was quickly relegated to other duties, mostly coastal defense. They were simply unable to hit their targets and the machine guns froze up, leaving them defenseless. RAF's experience with the Fortress I showed both the RAF and USAAF that the B-17C was not ready for combat, and that improved defenses, larger bomb loads and more accurate bombing methods were required.

At $238,329 per aircraft the production cost of the B-17 also made it completely unacceptable for a BoB-era Luftwaffe. A Ju 88A-5 cost only RM 196,825 ... $46,863 in 1940's currency conversion. The Luftwaffe could get five Ju 88's for the price of one B-17, and the Ju 88 could carry the same bomb load as early B-17's.

Further more the whole of the British Isles were already within the range of Luftwaffe bombers so the B-17's greater range is irrelevant. The Luftwaffe even bombed a number of cities and towns in Ireland. Very few Luftwaffe bombing raids were turned back by the RAF the vast majority of raids reached their targets. The 110 in operation during the BoB did not have better performance than the Spitfire at high altitudes. The 110C in AH is an up-engined version that is not representative of the BoB 110's.

The Luftwaffe was already bombing British infrastructure, but just like the Germans did later in the war the British had decentralized their war industry. The Germans were unable to locate and identify the British war producing "cottage-industry", and the Luftwaffe's strategic efforts were as ineffective in stopping the British war production as the USAAF's later effort against German war production.

As always your comments are nothing but fantasy and wishful thinking. The only thing that could have won the Germans the BoB was to concentrate on the tactical destruction of the RAF and their airfields. The Luftwaffe's switch to strategic bombing and terror bombing lost them the battle ... and probably the war.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 01:51:07 AM by Lumpy »
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Stoney

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2008, 02:37:11 AM »
I think the P-47N achieved top speed at 30-32k.

34K for critical altitude in the P-47N.

If I going into combat in one of these planes, the P-47N would be my choice, bar none.  Range exceeded the P-51D, flew faster at altitude, rugged, handled well, more power than it needed, and had fairly docile characteristics on the landing roll (almost impossible to ground loop).  Furthermore, creature comforts in the cockpit were figured in, big roomy cockpit with rudder pedals that could be flipped down for leg rests, and, it had an autopilot for those long, 12 hour missions.  It had enough firepower for any situation, and had a solid setup for ground attack--decent payload, lots of structure to soak up ack, and a radial engine that could cough and sputter its way back missing cylinders.  When you look at its systems, you truly start to see an aircraft that was beginning to hit the ultimate potential of what a piston-engined fighter could be.  Automated oil cooler and intercooler controls, automated water injection controls, K-14 gunsite, etc.

Other 4 aircraft:

F4U-4
P-47D series
F6F-5
FW-190
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Offline bozon

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2008, 07:19:21 AM »
If I had to fly into combat I'd take what gives me the best chances to survive. Combat record proves:
P47 as escort+jabo
F6F - carrier
Mosquito - bomber, night fighter, whathaveyou.

I would stay away from the F4U - surviving the war includes not killing myself as well.
Why would anyone use B17/24s when Mosquitos do the same job better, safer and cheaper?
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

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Offline CAP1

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2008, 07:30:01 AM »
That's what you think...Until one of my F-15's Air to Air missiles obliterates you!  :lol

unless someone comes for you in an F22. then you'll be :O as his missles take ya apart :rofl
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Offline Hitman20

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2008, 09:44:53 AM »
I would use the F4U-1D: good bombs and rocks, can be used as a good fighter.
P-51D: range, and good at high alt
B-24: Not as big as the Lanc, but more guns. Not as good as 17, but more bombs.
P-38: Good as an attack plane, ok as fighter
TMB- Good armor, and guns for a torp plane, also uses a bomb site.

Offline humble

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Re: It's a real war, and you must pick your planes. What will they be?
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2008, 10:55:59 AM »
Less than a hundred B-17 had been made by the time of the BoB, and those early B-17 B and C were far from as effective as the later F and G models. The RAF were the first to use the B-17 in combat and they were so unimpressed with the performance that the B-17 was quickly relegated to other duties, mostly coastal defense. They were simply unable to hit their targets and the machine guns froze up, leaving them defenseless. RAF's experience with the Fortress I showed both the RAF and USAAF that the B-17C was not ready for combat, and that improved defenses, larger bomb loads and more accurate bombing methods were required.

At $238,329 per aircraft the production cost of the B-17 also made it completely unacceptable for a BoB-era Luftwaffe. A Ju 88A-5 cost only RM 196,825 ... $46,863 in 1940's currency conversion. The Luftwaffe could get five Ju 88's for the price of one B-17, and the Ju 88 could carry the same bomb load as early B-17's.

Further more the whole of the British Isles were already within the range of Luftwaffe bombers so the B-17's greater range is irrelevant. The Luftwaffe even bombed a number of cities and towns in Ireland. Very few Luftwaffe bombing raids were turned back by the RAF the vast majority of raids reached their targets. The 110 in operation during the BoB did not have better performance than the Spitfire at high altitudes. The 110C in AH is an up-engined version that is not representative of the BoB 110's.

The Luftwaffe was already bombing British infrastructure, but just like the Germans did later in the war the British had decentralized their war industry. The Germans were unable to locate and identify the British war producing "cottage-industry", and the Luftwaffe's strategic efforts were as ineffective in stopping the British war production as the USAAF's later effort against German war production.

As always your comments are nothing but fantasy and wishful thinking. The only thing that could have won the Germans the BoB was to concentrate on the tactical destruction of the RAF and their airfields. The Luftwaffe's switch to strategic bombing and terror bombing lost them the battle ... and probably the war.


Its pretty obvious that you have little understanding of the history of the luftwaffe or the real issues that shaped the BoB.

The seeds for the luftwaffe were planted by Gen Hans Von Seekt in the early 1920's. He selected and nurture the original cadre of officers who would later create the luftwaffe. In 1933 the appointment of Erhard Milch began the transition of the "civil" air industry into the true luftwaffe. The chief advocate and pioneer of what would be considered the modern airforce in europe during the post WW1 era was Giulio Douhet. Hitler, Milch and the "senior brain trust" of the luftwaffe were all proponents of this new "air power". Max Wever was selected as the original Chief of the Air staff and a very forward looking strategic role for the luftwaffe was laid (the Luftkriegfuhrung). The 1st and most pressing need the new mandate required was A bomber that could fly around Britain from its base in Germany (direct quote from Milch).

General Wever was a strong proponent of a true strategic airforce and immediately began to lay the frame work needed to bring Douhet's vision to life.

The following is a summery of his speech at the 1935 opening of the air war academy taken from an other source...

He stated that "the realms of the air are not restricted to the fronts of the Army; they are above and behind the army, over the coasts and seas, over the whole nation and over the whole of the enemy's territory." Wever went on to advocate the doctrine of attack, stressing the offensive. He asserted that "the bomber is the decisive factor in aerial warfare." He warned that it was not sufficient to establish defense with only defensive weapons, instead the initiative must be taken and this meant that "the enemy bomber formations should be attacked at their most vulnerable moment; when they are on the ground taking on fresh fuel and ammunition and reservicing." In terms of established air policy, emphasis was first on the surprise attack of enemy air forces followed by attacks upon other vital enemy centers of gravity. "An initial assault by the Luftwaffe was to be directed against the enemy air force, including its supporting aircraft and aero-engine factories and ground installations, in order to gain air superiority from the outset."

General Wever was killed in a flying accident the following year and the army began to exercise a greater influence over the supposedly independent luftwaffe. From the army's perspective the role of the luftwaffe was "the role of airpower was simply to allow the maneuvers of the ground forces as much freedom as possible.". This eventually led to a focus on dive bombing vs level bombing and an operational doctrine focused on pinpoint vs area bombing and operational level bombing at lower altitudes. It led to cancelation of the JU-86 and delayed the Ju-88 development significantly and eliminated any true strategic bomber.

So when the JU-881A arrived it had a max speed of 258 mph a range of 550 miles and a 2000 bomb load. When loaded to maximum capacity it had a range of only 250 miles and a top speed of 190 mph....but with a top flight crew it could deliver 50% its bombs in a 50M radius in a dive bombing attack.

Alot of factors from the lack of quality engines to limited and lower octane fuel supplies also played a part, but the real issue here was that the army simply overrode the luftwaffe's goal to develope a true heavy bomber (4 of which were in development in 1936).

This led to operational doctrines and planes tailored to low altitude level bombing and/or dive bombing and operational combat at altitudes that favored the british. This led to very high bomber attrition (so bad that only 1 experienced officer per plane was allowed) and tied german fighters to an ineffective close escort role which maximized there own casualties and minimized there effectiveness vs there british counterparts...

So in 1940 the Germans had the 109/110/He-111/Ju-88...basically the same airforce they finished the war with.

If we look across the ocean to the US...the B-17 was already in production and the XP-38 had set a speed record in 1939. So the US had both the fighter and the bomber that would 1st reach Berlin "on the books" in the 1930's. Whats funny is that the US and germans drew such different conclusions from the spanish civil war where the germans saw validation of there tactics and the americans saw all the shortfalls in both the german bombers and the 109 itself.

So while the german loss of the BoB can be argued as a command failure with a high measure of success the real underlying issue was the failure to implement the Luftkriegfuhrung as originally conceived, which led to obvious shortcomings in equipment not suited to a strategic campaign and relagated the luftwaffe to much more marginalized role then originally hoped for. In the end Germany lost the airwar in 1944 because of choices it made in 1937...



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