How I would do the BoB

[Anaxogoras]

Rule #1: No field capture, no cv's and no gv's.  Now, I know some people are like , but the BoB was purely an aerial engagement and should be reenacted as such.

Rule #2: Victory conditions depend on how well the Luftwaffe bombs the snot out of RAF targets, London and the coastal ports; and on how well the RAF blows bombers and fighters out of the sky without suffering too many losses.

Rule #3: The Luftwaffe must bomb ports with Ju-87s, and assigned target airfields and London with Ju88s or Ju87s.  Radar and other targets of opportunity can be destroyed however anyone likes.

Rule #4: The Luftwaffe has no radar and no enemy radar bars.  The RAF has radar and enemy radar bars.

------------------

The battle lasts for 7 days.  Each day the Luftwaffe is assigned X targets and receives a victory point for either closing an airfield (e.g. all aircraft hangars down at the same time), or for destroying all buildings and moored ships at a port (all at the same time).  Rebuild times are yet to be determined, but target hardness will be normal.  The RAF begins with X victory points but loses one every time the Luftwaffe wins a victory point.  One final victory point is assigned to whichever side had the better K/D ratio at the end of the day, in order to break ties.  At the end of the 7 days, a winner is declared based on who won the most days during the week.

Except for London, no RAF airfield or Port should be made a target twice during the week.  This means that axis commanders will have to assign some targets that are deeper into RAF territory.  If it's possible, it might also be interesting for rebuild times to be affected by bombing London.

Luftwaffe:
109E
110C
Ju88
Ju87

RAF:
Spit1
Hurri1

Tell me what you think.

[Arlo]

Interesting but, as it turns out, this appears to not be as rigid a war as to mimic BoB.

"The War begins FRIDAY in the Axis vs Allied theatre.  The WAR is won when each side has captured at a minimum 20 opponent fields and holds then until the battle-check day of Thursday, 1159pm EST. If not, the WAR continues another week until a victor has captured enough fields. Commanders will be given new aircraft based on the Round Table every week the war continues.

Will the Allies defend England and recapture France or will Germany press into the cliffs of Dover?

Those interested in Commanding each side can send a PM to any AvA staff member expressing their interest and why they feel they are best suited to lead their forces into battle."

Sounds like it's really the BoB map with the early planeset but it's gloves off war and anything goes. It will progress with it being a war across the channel. D-Day just came early. *ShruG* It's more like "what if Great Britain had the industrial might of the U.S. at the beginning of the war .... without the U.S.

If only attrition could be modeled then each week could start out with a single default plane that has limitless supply and all others a finite number that ticks down every time a plane is lost. I wouldn't dream of asking HT and co to model such. Perhaps staff could keep track of specific models of planes lost each day and once so many are then that plane becomes unavailable until industry can provide more (set a production number of x  per day to start with that will make it available the next day but if that limited number is exhausted it's off the hangar list the following day after).

Example: The planeset starts just as it did this week.

Allied

C-47 (Limitless supply)
Boston Mk III (Affected by attrition - 2 pts per unit)
Hurricane Mk I (Either chosen as default or 1 pt per unit)
Spitfire Mk I (Either chosen as default or 1 pt per unit)
M-3 (Limitless supply)
M-8 (.5 pts per unit)
Jeep (Limitless supply)
LVT2 (Limitless supply)
LVT4 (.5 pts per unit)
PT Boat (1 pt per unit)

Axis

Bf 110C (Default or 1 pt per unit)
Bf 109E (Default or 1 pt per unit)
Ju 87 (1 pt per unit)
C-47 (Limitless supply)
SDKFZ-251 (Limitless supply)
M-8 (.5 pts per unit)
Jeep (Limitless supply)
LVT2 (Limitless supply)
LVT4 (.5 pts per unit)
PT Boat (1 pt per unit)

Give each side access to fleets at the start of the frame. All fleets lost .. are lost for the week. OR ... lost for a day and rebuilt using production pts. But make them VERY costly (20 pts a fleet, at least). Assign a production pt. value for factories. Alternatively, each side can work on research and development at a factory (actually simulating working toward achieving newer models of equipment as the war progresses).

We know that plane and vehicle model losses can be monitored on a daily basis. The tricky part would be monitoring strategic targets hit and loss of production pts. I suppose requiring submission of film destroying designated targets could suffice but we're reaching the point of requiring a lot of hands on monitoring by staff (unless command groups on each side can work out a way to exchange films and recognize each other's achievements). Would strat production point loss encourage even more milk-running? Well then we can also set specific time windows, I suppose, to hit specific targets. This accomplishes two things, it not only keeps staff or command groups from being inundated with dozens of off-primetime milkrun films ... it sets up actual encounters between strike groups and defense groups. Intelligence working both ways. They know what to hit and where ... we know when they're hitting it (and visa versa).

Now ... back to production. Prior to the U.S. entering the war Great Britain was facing a potential catastrophe regarding production needed to keep Germany at bay (so to speak). That's one of the things that made BoB one of those battles of legend ... the ability to stave off Germany with the limited resources they had. I can see setting this war up slightly slanted, production wise, in Germany's favor ... until the U.S. enters ... then the production values scale starts to shift over time (with a bit of an advantage for the Allies by having production centers in the U.S. that are untouchable). It would be cool to see "merchant fleets" come into the mix to simulate shipping in material.

(Yeah, I've been mulling this for years - literally.)

[Shifty]

Anax,

You're example is similar to old AVA setups. I'd like to see us return to those, maybe run regular setups for two weeks or so between wars.
Good post.

[thrila]

i'm pretty sure Great Britain was out producing germany in planes and tanks (not great tanks admitedly) up until '43/44

[araiguma]

Biggest problems I see with this event:

No HE111's
No DO17's
No BF109E's with bomb carrying capability
Dare I mention HE115's (Luftlotte 5 KFG 506 stavanger I group)

No Bristol Blenheim
No Bristol Beaufighters
No Gloster Gladiators
No Bolton Paul Defiants
No Westland Whirlwind's (263 squad RAF Turnhouse)
No Fairey Battle light bombers

Sort of hard to recreate the BoB without the planeset.

It would be nice to be able to break the event down into the four phases, or at least a couple of them:
- fighting over the channel
- attack on coastal airfields
- attack on main airfields
- attacks on towns and cities

Please don't take this as a complaint, that's not the intent and I'm having fun with what is available, even with the low numbers in my time zone <S>.

[republic]

You guys remember when only older airframes were on the front lines, and bombers and newer airframes were in the back fields?  I'd like to see a return to that at some point.

[Motherland]

You guys remember when only older airframes were on the front lines, and bombers and newer airframes were in the back fields?  I'd like to see a return to that at some point.

I agree

[Anaxogoras]

Explain to me how the lack of biplanes like the Gladiator is important when we want to simulate dogfights and bomber interception.

[Arlo]

i'm pretty sure Great Britain was out producing germany in planes and tanks (not great tanks admitedly) up until '43/44

Pretty sure or sure? There's a bit of a difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II

But all in all, did you have anything else you liked or disliked about my proposal outside of your belief that I'm wrong about Great Britain's war production might at the time of the Battle of Britian?

Did I mention I've been thinking about and working on this for years?

I'd appreciate more than a minute's thought if you want to respond and discuss. If you can't spare more, why bother?

 

[Arlo]

Biggest problems I see with this event:

No HE111's
No DO17's
No BF109E's with bomb carrying capability
Dare I mention HE115's (Luftlotte 5 KFG 506 stavanger I group)

No Bristol Blenheim
No Bristol Beaufighters
No Gloster Gladiators
No Bolton Paul Defiants
No Westland Whirlwind's (263 squad RAF Turnhouse)
No Fairey Battle light bombers

Sort of hard to recreate the BoB without the planeset.

It would be nice to be able to break the event down into the four phases, or at least a couple of them:
- fighting over the channel
- attack on coastal airfields
- attack on main airfields
- attacks on towns and cities

Please don't take this as a complaint, that's not the intent and I'm having fun with what is available, even with the low numbers in my time zone <S>.

Regarding the desire of a more accurate BoB planeset:

That makes it an issue of approaching HTC to model a large number of early warbirds in an enviroment where 90% of the player base is only interested in flying the fastest or most destructive planes of the late war in an MA enviroment. As much as Dale has a desire to bring more history into the game he's stuck catering to those needs moreso. I, personally, am in entire agreement with you. I'd love to go back even further and see a Spanish Civil War planeset, terrain and devoted arena. But that involves even less than ten percent of the base who are even remotely interested.

Regarding the phases: I would like to see that, as well. But I'm inclined to think it's design and setting of the scenario and arena that leads to players adopting any sort of tactics or strategy and it's a hard line to walk when the game design incorporates base capture as a major victory condition.

[sparow]

<Salute> Anaxagoras and Arlo!

Gentlemen, you cannot imagine how refreshing it is to read adult and well thought ideas about BoB setup and AvA in general.

I totally agree with both of you, even in the objections and difficulties you raise in what concerns interested player base and available planeset.

Attrition has been one of my constant pleas for years in the Wishlist forum. The lack of truly important models - considered hangar queens for 99,9% of the player base - like the He111 and Blenheim, another quest of mine. Oh, the Spanish Civil War...a dream...The polish fighters, the russian early war fighters...how they would be important to re-create the first years of the conflict...

I cannot agree more with the idea of having different victory conditions for Axis and Alies. AvA War should follow a minimum historical script. Spanish Civil War, Winter War in Finland, Poland invasion, Norway, France invasion, Battle of Britain and so on...All different fases, all with different condition victories, all with different impacts on the strategical side of the war in every theatre of operations.

But bare in mind the effort put into this project by AvA Staff and the results it obtained. For the first time after many, many months, AvA attracts players. This is important. For the first time in years, I see AvA with more numbers than EW MA. Almost the same numbers than MW MA. In my Europe time zone, at least. This was a victory for the Staff and AvA regular players. Yes, AvA now is a bit less historical than it was. Yes, it's a capture the flag thing, nothing too elaborated. But it's bringing people in. And we don't have to suffer with Spit vs Spit fights. Well, we may face the odd 109/Zeke combo, but even that is better than the latter.

I would not push the envelope too fast and too hard. I would introduce subtle changes. To survive, AvA must "teach" his newer players to "enjoy" some limitations, some challenges, some handicaps.

Keep these good ideas alive and sneak them slowly into the sistem...And in 6 months we will have a larger regular player base, mostly made of people that will never go back to the MA's...

Excellent ideas, this is the kind of contribution that is positive and constructive. Thank you for reconciling me with this BB.

<Salute>

[araiguma]

In retrospect I should have begun my post by introducing myself before spouting off.  I am new to AH2 and the AvA, but did fly in Warbirds (insert the background booo’s and hisses!).  I live in Japan and subsequently am quite often seen flying in the AvA under less than ideal hours when very few other players are on.  I did manage to fly a few briefs sorties this morning before I left for work and like ChemDawg got to experience being shot down a few times by Bruv119 <S> before I had to log.   

Gavagai <S> I shall try to answer your question.  The Gloster gladiator did not play a major role in the Bob, but it did play a role.  By replacing the Gloster with more advanced aircraft at places like say Portsmouth, then it’s not as historic.  That was my point; I do however understand the limitations of the game.

I think my previous post was poorly written and I would like to expand on it and further clarify how I would like to see this done.  More of an overview than a "down to the last detail" plan.

The focus on base closure and capture makes me feel that we have something more akin to a combined Operation Sea lion and D-Day invasion than the actual BoB.  Perhaps concessions were made that were intended to draw in or retain players who would otherwise opt not to participate if the objectives were different.

QUESTIONS
- Could a successful event be constructed that did not include the capture of an enemy base? 
- Is it possible to make settings on a field such that if a building is destroyed, it would remain so until the end of the event?
- Is there a way to script convoys to support part 1?


Part 1 Fighting over the Channel (10Jul~11Aug):
Axis objectives:
-  Attack and destroy British convoys, deprive the British people of coal, food, and supplies. (must destroy a specified number of convoys using JU87’s ).
-  Draw/lure the RAF up over the channel where they would be engaged by BF109’s.  (Must destroy a specified number or have a specified kill/death ratio to win)
-  Attack British channel ports (bomb and level all ports)
-  Sporadically bomb the west, midlands, and east coast. (specify some targets to level)
-  12 Aug, all out attacks on 6 British coastal radar stations.

Allied objectives:
-  Respond to attacks despite a lack of fighters and pilots
-  This is where the Defiant aircraft would be seen.
-  Get a set number of convoys safely to a select port
-  Defend the coastal radar stations
-  Destroy a specified number of barges in ports such as Ostend using bombers (bomber command missions)

Part 2 Attack on the coastal radar stations and airfields (12-23 Aug):
Axis objectives:
-  Inflict as much damage as possible to coastal aerodromes.
-  19 Aug attack and level a specific city which represents the focused attacks on aircraft and tire production.
-  Destroy 2 or more coastal radar stations
-  Bombers escorted by 110’s fly attack the North of England from bases in Norway and Denmark.

Allied objectives:
-  Defend fields
-  Continue to bomb ports supporting operation sea lion preparations.

Part 3 Attack on main airfields (24Aug~06Sep):
Axis objectives:
-  24 Aug Attack and destroy as many large airfields (fighter command key stations) as possible.  Biggin Hill, Hornchurch, Bebden, North Weald, Croydon, Gravesend, Rochford, Hawkinge, Manston, and Eastchurch (believed to be by the Germans).
-  The bombing of Portsmouth.

Allied objectives:
-  Defend airfields.
-  Destroy a specified number of bombers/fighters within a set kill/death ratio.

Part 4 Attack on towns and cities /The Blitz (7 Sept): 

Axis objectives:
-  Day and night bombing of London, level London
-  24 Sept bomb Portsmouth

Allied objectives:
-  Defend London
-  Rebuild airfields (supply drops)
-  Defend Portsmouth (

When I listed all of the various aircraft which participated in the BoB, it was not a poke in the eye for the lack of aircraft per say.  It was because depending on the airfield or squadron, the Allies may not be able to sortie Spits and Hurricanes from that field.  Being able to limit the planes available at an airfield would add to the event.  So for example if the Axis attacked RAF Northholt then one of the available planes would be Blenheims or Bristol Beaufighters.  I believe a Polish squad flew out of here as well at least until 3 Aug so you would have some Hurricanes available.  And Gloster Gladiators from 247 squadron were employed in the defense of Portsmouth until at least 24 September, with Hurricane support from Exeter.

SETUP:
- Allies have radar, Axis doesn’t.  If the axis can destroy the radar stations they remain down for a specified duration and allies loose the radar advantage.
- 18 Aug, JU87 and BF110 use scaled back (limited availability at fields). This is where planes such as the Erpro 210 would come into play. 

[oakranger]

Like the idea.  BoB should not be a base captur objective.

[Arlo]

In retrospect I should have begun my post by introducing myself before spouting off.  I am new to AH2 and the AvA, but did fly in Warbirds (insert the background booo’s and hisses!). 

Actually I quite enjoyed your post (as this one) and couldn't have imagined a better intro than jumping in, expressing genuine interest and exhibiting both knowledge of historical events and experience in equating game mechanics to them. No boos and hisses for having gained experience in other games when presented well, either. I'm honored to welcome you aboard and look forward to your participation both as a player and fellow design kibitzer. <salute>

I'm Arlo ... aka Guthrie. Current C.O. of VF-17 "Jolly Rogers" (and whatever appropriate Allied persona the squad'll mimic in the AvA). Good to meet you, Arai (is it ok to shorten? It's a habit here for those of us who have trouble handling too many syllables on vox).

And remember ... kill the enemy.  

[araiguma]

Thanks Arlo <S>, I'm glad I was able to express my thoughts better.  Arai is ok, araiguma is Japanese for racoon (don't ask my kids picked it  ), but Rich is fine in a pinch.