Author Topic: The tax debate we should have...  (Read 531 times)

Offline LePaul

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The tax debate we should have...
« on: April 04, 2008, 12:17:34 AM »
I thought this was a well-written view of the current tax situation.  From CNN Money

The tax debate we need to have
A shrinking minority of Americans are paying most of Washington's bills. That's not good.
By Geoff Colvin, senior editor at large
(Fortune Magazine) -- Here's a cold reality that none of the presidential candidates want to tell you: a shrinking number of Americans are bearing an ever bigger share of the nation's income tax burden.

Is that fair? Is it sticking the rich with what they deserve? Or is it a sign of a growing social problem? As you file your tax return, and as the candidates cite assorted half-truths about U.S. taxes, those questions are worth our attention - as long as we spurn political spin and face the surprising facts.

The first surprise for most people is the large proportion of Americans who don't pay any income tax at all. The number of people who actually get money back - not a refund, but a net payment - through the income tax system, is huge. In 2005 (the most recent year for which data is available), the bottom 40% of Americans by income had, in the aggregate, an effective tax rate that's negative: their households received more money through the income tax system, largely from the earned income tax credit, than they paid.

That means that the number of people who actually pay America's income taxes - totaling almost $1 trillion in 2005 - is surprisingly small. Of those who filed returns (themselves a subset of the population), just half accounted for 97% of the Treasury's total income tax revenue. The top half's share of total payments has been growing steadily for the past 20 years. The top 10% of taxpayers kicked in 70% of total income tax. And the famous top 1% paid almost 40% of all income tax, a proportion that has jumped dramatically since 1986.

But wait a minute. Senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama rail against President Bush's "tax cuts for the rich." How does that square with the growing share of total tax paid by the wealthy? Are the richest Americans paying so much because they're actually getting clobbered with higher tax rates? No. Their effective tax rate - the total tax they pay as a percentage of their income - has declined substantially. The top 1% paid an effective tax rate of 23% in 2005, down from 27.5% in 2001.

The rich are getting richer, faster
So if the rich are paying more income tax, yet are being taxed at a lower rate, there can be only one explanation: their incomes must be growing fast, much faster than the rest of the population's. That is what's happening. Back in 1986, an income of $119,000 got you into the top 1%. By 2005 it took $365,000 to get into the club. Those numbers are unadjusted for inflation; if you correct them, it turns out the price of admission still rose by a huge 72%. By contrast, the inflation-adjusted definition of a median taxpayer - that is, someone in the 50th percentile - didn't budge.

Now consider some of the heated tax controversies of recent years. Did Bush cut taxes for the rich? Yes. But he cut taxes for the poor even more. If we look at the measure that really matters - the change in effective tax rates - the bottom 50% got a much bigger tax cut than the top 1%. Did the dollar value of Bush's tax cuts go mostly to the wealthy? Absolutely. It could hardly be otherwise. Since the well-off pay the overwhelming majority of taxes, any tax cut with a prayer of influencing the economy would have to go mostly to them. You could completely eliminate income taxes for the bottom half of the population, and the Treasury would hardly notice.

The real issues here are clear. One is having a shrinking minority of citizens pay most of Washington's bills. Social cohesion falls apart. The majority who pay nothing resent those with higher incomes; the minority who pay heavily resent those who don't pay.

More fundamental is why some people's incomes are growing so much faster than other people's incomes. That, and not taxes, is what the supposed tax debate is really about. Watch to see if the candidates make substantive proposals for dealing with the issue, including how low-income citizens can get some of the earning power now going heavily to the better educated, plus how U.S. workers in general can be worth their high cost in a global labor market. It's a lot harder than changing income tax rates.

First Published: April 2, 2008: 5:29 AM EDT

storch

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Re: The tax debate we should have...
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2008, 12:20:44 AM »
are you advocating increased taxation on people who can barely afford the basic neccesities as it is?

Offline LePaul

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Re: The tax debate we should have...
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2008, 01:20:34 AM »
I'm not advocating anything.  I just think that paragraph nails the emotion many have.  Those who pay growl in frustration while those who do not get a big rebate via EIC.  If they aren't paying, fine, but why give them money?  Oh wait, its the envy...and thus the cycle contines.

If anything, I thought this would be interesting for discussion. 

storch

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Re: The tax debate we should have...
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2008, 06:53:13 AM »
the guy in the middle pays the biggest chunk as a group.  the guy at the top pays the most as an individual.  the guy at the bottom is well....you can't get blood from a turnip.  is fortune magazine owned by time/life?  if so you have to consider the source and what the possible motivation for printing the type of editorial is. 

the top 20% of earners already pay 80% of the tax burden.  as a person who earns in this category it bothers me to see how much of MY money goes to the governments by way of taxes.  in my particular case I estimate that I'm taxed to the tune of 55% of my earnings.  I get a good share of my income by doing work for various governmental agencies so in a sense I'm seeing some direct personal benefit from my taxation but I feel bad for a high income earner who isn't sitting at the public trough providing a service.

I'm bothered by the amount of tax I pay but when I consider my alternative I grumble mostly to my accountant and myself because the fact is there is no way I could live as well as I do doing what I do for a living anywhere else on earth.  the system isn't perfect but our system works better than any other system on this planet.  this is still the only place that with a little pluck and determination a person could become wealthy while playing within the rules in a relatively short period of time.

I do feel an obligation to give the people at the bottom a break but the guy at the top, the one who produces the most for the collective (which is what have become so to speak) needs even more of a break.

geoff colvin needs a good asswhipping, little soft handed snooty wussboy.  I hope he lives in a home with an access control system, I wish him perpetual lightning.  communist bastige.  I don't understand what point he may be attempting to make other than stir the pot, he has a firm grasp of the obvious as far as I'm concerned.

 :D

« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 06:59:17 AM by storch »

Offline Hornet33

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Re: The tax debate we should have...
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2008, 07:41:34 AM »
I say we charge EVERYONE 1% of their income as tax. No breaks, no loopholes, no nothing.
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Offline Shamus

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Re: The tax debate we should have...
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2008, 08:39:35 AM »
I say we charge EVERYONE 1% of their income as tax. No breaks, no loopholes, no nothing.

The government would not stand for such a huge drop in income, FICA alone is over 15%, what programs would you cut?

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Offline Hornet33

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Re: The tax debate we should have...
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2008, 09:02:14 AM »
The government would not stand for such a huge drop in income, FICA alone is over 15%, what programs would you cut?

shamus

The IRS for one. No need to have all those people working on a tax code no one can understand if you make it so everyone can do their taxes with 2nd grade math. There's your savings right there.
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Offline lasersailor184

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Re: The tax debate we should have...
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2008, 09:15:16 AM »
The government would not stand for such a huge drop in income, FICA alone is over 15%, what programs would you cut?

shamus

All of them.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: The tax debate we should have...
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2008, 09:20:10 AM »
It's a well known fact that the folks who pay the least use the most.
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Offline Maverick

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Re: The tax debate we should have...
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2008, 11:29:08 AM »
The IRS for one. No need to have all those people working on a tax code no one can understand if you make it so everyone can do their taxes with 2nd grade math. There's your savings right there.

IIRC the IRS doesn't make the tax code, congress does. The IRS just has to work with it.
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Offline Gunthr

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Re: The tax debate we should have...
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2008, 11:58:36 AM »
I'm afraid that a major weakness in our system is  the santa claus politics to get reelected- that the politicians in congress, are by their nature, unable to address the major issues we face -  like the cold reality that the Soc Sec system is is not sustainable and predictably condemns our grandkids,  and the fact that via our political taxing holds fewer and fewer responsible for the irresponsibility of more and more people.  It is foreseeable what is going to happen, but they still won't do anything about it.  I give Bush a little credit for at least taking a stab at.
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Offline WWhiskey

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Re: The tax debate we should have...
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2008, 11:59:04 AM »
IIRC the IRS doesn't make the tax code, congress does. The IRS just has to work with it.

i dont think that is true, the congress does not have that kind of time
talk to any congressman or woman and they dont have a clue what is in the tax code
but then if you talk to more than two irs people you will likely get more than one answer to the same question! a flat 15% tax across the board for anyone making more than 50,000 per year is the most fair to all as it gives all those under that a total tax break!
I thought this was a well-written view of the current tax situation.  From CNN Money

The tax debate we need to have
A shrinking minority of Americans are paying most of Washington's bills. That's not good.
By Geoff Colvin, senior editor at large
(Fortune Magazine) -- Here's a cold reality that none of the presidential candidates want to tell you: a shrinking number of Americans are bearing an ever bigger share of the nation's income tax burden.

Is that fair? Is it sticking the rich with what they deserve? Or is it a sign of a growing social problem? As you file your tax return, and as the candidates cite assorted half-truths about U.S. taxes, those questions are worth our attention - as long as we spurn political spin and face the surprising facts.

The first surprise for most people is the large proportion of Americans who don't pay any income tax at all. The number of people who actually get money back - not a refund, but a net payment - through the income tax system, is huge. In 2005 (the most recent year for which data is available), the bottom 40% of Americans by income had, in the aggregate, an effective tax rate that's negative: their households received more money through the income tax system, largely from the earned income tax credit, than they paid.

That means that the number of people who actually pay America's income taxes - totaling almost $1 trillion in 2005 - is surprisingly small. Of those who filed returns (themselves a subset of the population), just half accounted for 97% of the Treasury's total income tax revenue. The top half's share of total payments has been growing steadily for the past 20 years. The top 10% of taxpayers kicked in 70% of total income tax. And the famous top 1% paid almost 40% of all income tax, a proportion that has jumped dramatically since 1986.

But wait a minute. Senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama rail against President Bush's "tax cuts for the rich." How does that square with the growing share of total tax paid by the wealthy? Are the richest Americans paying so much because they're actually getting clobbered with higher tax rates? No. Their effective tax rate - the total tax they pay as a percentage of their income - has declined substantially. The top 1% paid an effective tax rate of 23% in 2005, down from 27.5% in 2001.

The rich are getting richer, faster
So if the rich are paying more income tax, yet are being taxed at a lower rate, there can be only one explanation: their incomes must be growing fast, much faster than the rest of the population's. That is what's happening. Back in 1986, an income of $119,000 got you into the top 1%. By 2005 it took $365,000 to get into the club. Those numbers are unadjusted for inflation; if you correct them, it turns out the price of admission still rose by a huge 72%. By contrast, the inflation-adjusted definition of a median taxpayer - that is, someone in the 50th percentile - didn't budge.

Now consider some of the heated tax controversies of recent years. Did Bush cut taxes for the rich? Yes. But he cut taxes for the poor even more. If we look at the measure that really matters - the change in effective tax rates - the bottom 50% got a much bigger tax cut than the top 1%. Did the dollar value of Bush's tax cuts go mostly to the wealthy? Absolutely. It could hardly be otherwise. Since the well-off pay the overwhelming majority of taxes, any tax cut with a prayer of influencing the economy would have to go mostly to them. You could completely eliminate income taxes for the bottom half of the population, and the Treasury would hardly notice.

The real issues here are clear. One is having a shrinking minority of citizens pay most of Washington's bills. Social cohesion falls apart. The majority who pay nothing resent those with higher incomes; the minority who pay heavily resent those who don't pay.

More fundamental is why some people's incomes are growing so much faster than other people's incomes. That, and not taxes, is what the supposed tax debate is really about. Watch to see if the candidates make substantive proposals for dealing with the issue, including how low-income citizens can get some of the earning power now going heavily to the better educated, plus how U.S. workers in general can be worth their high cost in a global labor market. It's a lot harder than changing income tax rates.

First Published: April 2, 2008: 5:29 AM EDT

i like your article it does leave one important fact, the middle class is shrinking! but not the way most people want you too think, middle class is making it to upper income! while low income is haveing a hard time getting to middle class!
another solution would be to go strait to a sales tax, consumtion taxes are the best way to close the irs and the most fair form of tax in my opinion, if you cant afford a new car, you dont have to pay tax just dont buy it! no tax on food items and other needed goods and services
which reminds me how does our gov. justify sin tax when they are suppossed to be seperate from the church,, it is a consumption tax on top of your regular taxes you just dont think about it because if you dont drink or smoke  you dont pay it!
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Offline Eagler

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Re: The tax debate we should have...
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2008, 01:23:58 PM »
It's a well known fact that the folks who pay the least use the most.

yep and the dem robinhoods want more for them to use for those who pay the least .... their voting base

they can't pay taxes but they can afford i-pods, $150 sneakers and cable tv
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Offline aenigma

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Re: The tax debate we should have...
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2008, 01:31:23 PM »
The government would not stand for such a huge drop in income, FICA alone is over 15%, what programs would you cut?

shamus

Get rid of ANY and ALL help given to illegal aliens and the sanctuary cities. We would save billions if not trillions of dollars plus it would save our Hospitals, etc..

Last I heard, the Democrats were planning to raise taxes on people who make 31K and up. Do you feel that knife in your back yet??
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Offline Shamus

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Re: The tax debate we should have...
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2008, 02:27:27 PM »
I rather doubt that taxing all income at 1% would even cover debt service.

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