Britians answer to the 17 pounder

[Napoleon II]

Thought this was going to be a thread about hamburgers!

[Angus]

The Sherman WITHOUT the 17 pounder has no chance against a Tiger... except by gang-ramming perhaps?
Anyway, the Comet is much better. It's faster, thicker, lower, wider and slightly heavier than...the Firefly

[Elfie]

It also used a armor piercing high velocity depleted Sabo round which we would be the equivelant of our modern day uranium depleted rounds.

A depleted what round?

I'd like to know what AApache was talking about also. The only *depleted* rounds I've ever heard of are depleted uranium rounds. I saw a show where a Comet was being restored and it was mentioned that it fired a Sabot round but didn't say it was *depleted*. /shrug

His post does not say they used them, he compared the two,

Since the depleted aspect of his statement is in question, I'm not sure what he was doing.

[Angus]

BTW Comets were used into the early 80's AFAIK....
Not sure what the rounds were at the time....

[texasmom]

I think that AApache may have only meant that the Sabot rounds used were the "top of the line" for that time period; in the same fashion that depleted uranium later became "top of the line."  I don't see any comparison between the two in his post other than that, though.

[Pongo]

At least the same- The firefly IS still a sherman. The 17-pounder isn't some magical wand that deflects' 88mm shells. The Firefly's survival depends' upon getting a first shot, at about 500 yrds. to be sure of a first-round kill. Otherwise, the Tiger's first shot in the engagement will be the last.

The Comet's armor might let it survive at a closer range to a Tiger than the Firefly could.

BTW, Why is this in the O'club, and not Planes' and Vehicles?

The Tiger has surplus killing power against either, Choose speed or killing power, in history killing power trumps speed.
Neither tank has the ability to go one on one with  Tiger with confidence. Both can easily be defeated by the tiger but cannot be sure of returning the favour at longer ranges.
The Sherman has a better chance of killing the Tiger at a range that it might resist the 88mm hit. The Comet might be missed by the tiger because of its speed, but would have to count on a few of those to threaten the tiger.
Given the choice, I would take the higher chance of killing the tiger with my first shot.
Against a panther it gets worse for the comet.
So I will take the firefly, I suspect most would if the comet was introduced.

[Angus]

Tiger has one drawback....slow turret traverse.
AFAIK 1 minute. Will have to look up on this though, but the allied tackle on Tigers was basically baiting them as somebody else nailed them from another direction.
Gangbanging, just like AH pony tactics

[john9001]

Tiger has one drawback....slow turret traverse.

and they break down allot. and they are hard to fix in the field. and they took too long to build. and they weighed too much.

[Brownshirt]

I'd like to know what AApache was talking about also. The only *depleted* rounds I've ever heard of are depleted uranium rounds. I saw a show where a Comet was being restored and it was mentioned that it fired a Sabot round but didn't say it was *depleted*. /shrug

Since the depleted aspect of his statement is in question, I'm not sure what he was doing.

Rounds used were APDS (Armour Piercing, Discarding Sabot) type with Tungsten (Wolfram) penetrator.

[Angus]

So, in short, the best penetrating rounds available....

[GtoRA2]

So, in short, the best penetrating rounds available....

The same round type in a 17 pounder would be a better gun.

[Brownshirt]

So, in short, the best penetrating rounds available....

but very inaccurate at first. To penetrate any armor you have to hit it first.

[Angus]

To penetrate a Tiger, you have to be close anyway?
And to get a good bead, a stable (wide) tank?
And to get a first bead, speed and traverse?

[Brownshirt]

17pdr had 15-20% better penetration at any range compared to Comet's 77mm when using same ammo.

17pdr's APDS could penetrate Tiger 1's armor from about any range, from 3000m it penetrated +150mm @ straight hit.

[Angus]

Holy cow! I knew it penetrated well, but that well, holy moly!
AFAIK the Comet had to lower this due to a different turret anyway, but obviously still packed some power as well as being faster, stabler and more heavily armed than the Firefly.