Why not use more Mosquitos

[RRAM]

The "NOT" bomber command, - i.e. naval-ops related had all sorts of aircraft in many odd places before there was area bombing in Germany.
We had all sorts of aircraft as far as up here in Iceland. Wellingtons included. As soon as 1940/41.
One of the first German U-boats to be captured intact was off the south coast of Iceland, some Cessna hour from where I live, - subdued by one 2 engined aircraft. I think it was a Douglas but would have to look it up.
BTW, when exactly did the area bombing start? 41 or 42?

British bombers started operating over germany by late november 1939. They never stopped operating over it until the end of war, except for the time the Bomber Command had to fly bombing operations supporting overlord preparations.

Bombings of german cities was already happening mostly since the war's start. Well, or at least tries to bomb german cities. Most british bombers in the 1939-41 time frame dropped bombs very far from target due to very serious navigation problems (they flew and bomb using star navigation).


Regarding radio guidance systems for british bombers. They were based on radio, but not the same as the german X-gėrat, Y-Gėrat or Knickebein (basically the german radio nav systems focused on the use of Lorentz beams).

Oboe was a very accurate system the british used to bomb german targets. In a given night, and for a certain target, two radio stations in england, with a large separation between them, were transmitting all the time. A british bomber with Oboe equipment had a transponder than when it received the signal, sent it back to the radio bases. The bases, calculating the time the signal had taken to go to the bomber, and back to the base, calculated the exact distance of the plane to the transmissor/receiver.

Prior to the bombing, the transmissors designed for the operation calculated the exact distance to the target between it and the transmissor itself. One of the stations "drew" a circle with the distance to the target, and the bomber navigated along that circle, at a constant speed and altitude decided in the mission planning. The other station "drew" a circle intersecting with the first one at the exact point where the bombs where to be released to hit the target given the plane's altitude and speed.
When the mosquito, flying along one of the transmissors "circle" crossed the other station's "circle", it dropped the bombs.

The accuracy was extraordinary. I don't recall the numbers by memory but the system had a CEP of around 100 yards at some 600km distance. When the system was re-made to allow for centimetric wavelenghts the accuracy increased quite a bit. Mosquitos with Oboe were as accurate, if not more, by night, than american bombers bombing in daylight using optical sights.

The germans didn't find out how oboe worked until it was already months in the use by the british. They tried to jam it, but by then Oboe was already using centimetric wavelenghts, and the germans never jammed this version.

There were more radio-guidance navigation/bombigs systems used by the british, such as Gee, but none was as successful as Oboe. And they even set up a system of beam-navigation analog to those of the Germans in 1940 to fly over germany, as a deception for the germans to lose sight on the radio navigation principles the british systems really used. Once the Germans realized it was a deception (late 1943), they stopped trying to jam the beams...and the british went on to actually use them for navigation until the war's end (and I think some of those stations are still operating today)

With all this advantages in precission bombing by night, Harris was still sending thousands of bombers to do area bombing until the end of the war. The conclussion to extract about Harris, is plain to see.

[Yarbles]

Didnt Albert Spear say a few more Hamburgs and they would have been in real trouble.

I would have thought a mossie based combination of precision and area bombing with the 4000 bombers Harris never got but might have been possible using the more durable Mossie???

What then? 

[Nashwan]

Why didnt bomber command drop the heavies altogether in favour of mass mossie atacks.

Because the Mosquito was not as cost effective.

The British Bombing Survey Unit (the British version of the USSBS) gives the following figure for man-months per 1,000 lbs of bombs dropped:

Lancaster - 9.5
Mosquito - 16
Halifax - 27
Wellington - 27.5
Stirling - 38

Lots of 'cookies' were dropped by B.XVIs, but I don't have a number.

According to Sharp and Bowyer in  Mosquito, about 10,000.

Mossies could carry the 4000lb cookie though maybe not to Berlin

Range with the 4,000 lb bomb was 1,370 miles. Berlin is just under 600 miles by a straight route. According to Sharp and Bowyer, Mossies dropped 1,459 4,000 lb bombs on Berlin in 1945.

British bombers started operating over germany by late november 1939. They never stopped operating over it until the end of war, except for the time the Bomber Command had to fly bombing operations supporting overlord preparations.

Bombings of german cities was already happening mostly since the war's start.

From the start of the war until March 1940 the RAF was not allowed to drop any bombs on Germany. They attacked only German warships at sea, because bombing warships in dock was seen to present too high a risk of killing civilian dock workers.

The other 2 missions the RAF flew in the period were reconnaissance and leaflet drops.

On 16th March the Luftwaffe carried out an attack on naval installations in the Orkney islands. Some of the bombs hit civilian housing, killing a civilian. In response to that, on 19th March the RAF bombed the seaplane base at Hornum, on the island of Sylt.

There were no further bombing attacks by the RAF until the night of the 10/11 May, following the German invasion (and bombing) of France, Belgium and the Netherlands. At that point the RAF flew a small number of sorties (8, I believe) against German road and rail targets west of the Rhine. They were not allowed to attack any targets east of the Rhine until 15/16 May, following the Luftwaffe attack on Rotterdam, when they began attacking military targets in the rest of Germany.

Well, or at least tries to bomb german cities.

The first time the RAF targeted a city, as opposed to attempting to bomb a precise target within a city, was on the 15/16 December, when 130+ bombers were sent to area bomb Mannheim, in response to the attack on Coventry.

[Yarbles]

Because the Mosquito was not as cost effective.

The British Bombing Survey Unit (the British version of the USSBS) gives the following figure for man-months per 1,000 lbs of bombs dropped:

Lancaster - 9.5
Mosquito - 16
Halifax - 27
Wellington - 27.5
Stirling - 38




So would this take into account suviveability as it appears to conflict with other data we have seen here i.e. the projected number of sorties before the plane and presumably the pilot was written off. I would assume training the pilot would be one of the greatest costs. Also a thousand pounds from a mossie would be a considerably more accurate 1000.

[RRAM]

From the start of the war until March 1940 the RAF was not allowed to drop any bombs on Germany. They attacked only German warships at sea, because bombing warships in dock was seen to present too high a risk of killing civilian dock workers.

The other 2 missions the RAF flew in the period were reconnaissance and leaflet drops.

notice how I did phrase my previous post. I said british planes operated over germany at night since november 1939. Not that they started bombing since then

The first time the RAF targeted a city, as opposed to attempting to bomb a precise target within a city, was on the 15/16 December, when 130+ bombers were sent to area bomb Mannheim, in response to the attack on Coventry.

In the night of the 25/26th August 1940, 81 Bomber Command aircraft were sent to area bomb Berlin. That's quite a deal before December

I think there were some more instances of RAF attacking german cities by night prior to December '40, but I gotta check some books to look for that and atm I can't.

[Squire]

Your making the error of assuming that "Bomber Command" had access to the Mosquito XVI in 1942-43. By the time that version was available, it was March 1944. The Mosquito B.IV carried 4 x 500 bombs. Thats 1/6th of what a Lancaster/Halifax would carry on a trip to Germany. By the time the Mosquito B.XVI was available the war was in its final 14 months. Even a Moss XVIs bombload with a "cookie cutter" was 1/3 of that of a heavy.

...Also, Mosquito production was filling orders for Night Fighters, Coastal Command Strike, Fighter-Bombers, and Bombers, ect, it could not simply "replace" the entire heavy bomber force on a whim. It takes time and money (lots of both) to switch factories over to a new type, build them, and get all the squadrons switched over, even if they decided they wanted to (which ultimately they didnt).

Hindsight of course is 20/20, you can debate wether they should have or not, but its not just a case of picking one varient and assuming it was readily available to replace other a/c. Its not that simple.

[Nashwan]

So would this take into account suviveability as it appears to conflict with other data we have seen here i.e. the projected number of sorties before the plane and presumably the pilot was written off. I would assume training the pilot would be one of the greatest costs

It includes training costs.

In the night of the 25/26th August 1940, 81 Bomber Command aircraft were sent to area bomb Berlin. That's quite a deal before December

No. 21 Wellingtons were sent to attack the Siemens factory in Berlin, and 3 separate marshalling yards elsewhere in Germany. Because of cloud cover over Berlin, only 1 of the Berlin aircraft bombed.

46 Hampdens were sent to attack the Klingenberg power station, Henschel aircraft factory, Tempelhof and Pangsdorf airfields. Again because of the cloud, only 10 bombed.

22 Whitleys were sent to bomb Siemens. 2 actually attacked, another bombed flak defences on the outskirts of Berlin, and one carried out a low level attack on dockyards at Bremen.

These were not area attacks. Indeed, RAF orders at this time were that if a precise military target could not be identified, aircraft were to bring their bombs back, or jettison them at sea. Most of the aircraft that set out to bomb Germany on the 25 did not actually do so because they could not identify any military targets through the cloud.

[Yarbles]

Hindsight of course is 20/20, you can debate wether they should have or not, but its not just a case of picking one varient and assuming it was readily available to replace other a/c. Its not that simple.

Agreed, but i would contend Harris was only ever thinking short term and was probably under pressure to come up with short term targets that would end the war.
The resourses used to build the heavies would not easily have translated into mossie production and I believe outdated Halifaxes were still being built up until the end in small numbers.
  The highest loss rates were for deep penetration raids on Berlin and the like where the heavies were unable to repeat their earlier succeses over the Ruhr and Hamberg. These raids could only be carried out in winter because of the long nights but it is likely given the speed the mossie could have and did bomb Berlin etc all the year round.

With hindsight a fast accurate medium/light Bomber force would have been the better option.  

[Squire]

Sounds like your really questioning the targeting of the bombers as much as you are the types used. I agree with your points, Berlin was the capital, but ultimately, rubbling it was not going to end the war (using Mossies or Lancs, or any other type). The industrial targets of the Rhur, and Germanys oil targets were much more important. I would not have bothered with Berlin (either the RAF or USAAF), it was a long way, and it was more a symbol than anything else, when they could have sortied to more important targets.

[Karnak]

The B.Mk XVI was not the first 'cookie' carrier Mossie.  The first was the B.Mk IV Special, followed by the B.Mk IX.  If Mossies had been prioritized things like the Mk IX and Mk XVI would have been built in much larger numbers.

Also the reasoning for man hours per 1,000lbs on Germany may have been a deciding factor, but it is flawed due to the tremendously greater accuracy of the Mosquito's 1,000lbs.

As to the "destruction of Germany's workforce by destruction of Germany's cities" policy, the Mosquito was actually quite capable of disrupting the workforce without killing it simply by denying them rest by means of small night raids that resulted in air raid sirens, search lights and AAA fire keeping the workers awake.  This tactic was actually used with large success.


Basically I agree with RAM's comments.

[Rich46yo]

Sounds like your really questioning the targeting of the bombers as much as you are the types used. I agree with your points, Berlin was the capital, but ultimately, rubbling it was not going to end the war (using Mossies or Lancs, or any other type). The industrial targets of the Rhur, and Germanys oil targets were much more important. I would not have bothered with Berlin (either the RAF or USAAF), it was a long way, and it was more a symbol than anything else, when they could have sortied to more important targets.

Well there was the argument that destroying German society would destroy their ability to make war. Or at least help destroy it. Every city in that country in some way helped their war effort, even if it didn't have heavy industry in it. The entire country was mobilized in some way. Killing the workforce alone was worth the price paid in heavy bombers and incendiaries.

In 2008 it all sounds inhumane but in 1945 raining mass death on German and Japanese society was an effective tool. There is no way to gauge its effectiveness but I will say having monsters like Bomber Harris and Curtis Le may on our side saved countless Allied lives. And it takes no great stretch of imagination to picture what Germany or Japan would have done to our cities had they the means.

Luckily they didn't and we did.

[Karnak]

I have heard that Germany and Japan did come up with a plan to fly about 20 or 30 Kawanishi H8K2 'Emiliy' flying boat recon-bombers to the Gulf of Mexico, link them up with some German cargo U-Boats to arm and fuel them and then using them for bombing raids on Detroit, or other US targets.  I understand Hitler was enthusiastic about the idea, but the war situation changed (Midway and such) so it didn't happen.

[Rich46yo]

I have heard that Germany and Japan did come up with a plan to fly about 20 or 30 Kawanishi H8K2 'Emiliy' flying boat recon-bombers to the Gulf of Mexico, link them up with some German cargo U-Boats to arm and fuel them and then using them for bombing raids on Detroit, or other US targets.  I understand Hitler was enthusiastic about the idea, but the war situation changed (Midway and such) so it didn't happen.

                  A raid? Now this was a raid http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/thousands.html

[Tilt]

I think Harris was not just grossly in favour of heavy bombers......... he was very much in favour of the Lancaster. He considered Halifax production wasted when it could be used instead to produce Lancasters.

The Mossie was very much left of field with respect to prevailing views. De havilland of course produced all the statistics quoted above and made a good arguement.

Harris however had to run an Airforce.

An airforce that, in order to drop a proportionate amount of ordinance using Mossies, would

require 5 trained mossie pilots in service for 1 lancaster pilot and 1 lancaster engineer/copliot

require 5 trained mossie Navigator/bomb aimer/radio operatives for 1 trained navigator, 1 trained Bomb aimer and 1 trained radio operative in a Lanc.

True the lanc also required 2 additional gunners but the training of such was of little consequence to Harris.

To Harris, a crew was not to be counted in human lives but instead counted  in training hours and  readiness.

From Harris's perspective Mossies required higher calibre pilots and more of them. Further Mossies required higher calibre navigator/bomb aimer /radio operatives and more of them.  Gunners he could pick up from the RAF regiments for free.


Plus Harris wanted big city breaking raids........ He was not into depriving work forces of sleep.............He was into terrorising workforces to an extent that they would loose all will to resist. (we can argue over the effectiveness of this elsewhere)

He wanted 1000 Lancasters (or their like) to achieve this. Trying to mass 5000 mossies and achieve the same would have been a nightmare of air traffic control and co ordination.

We only then have to imagine the ground crew support of 5000 mossies (10,000 engines) to 1000 Lancaster (4000 engines) and we see why Harris wanted the Lancaster.....it was simply the easiest route to achieve his objective

[RRAM]

Ok I will say it clearly. Yes; Harris, to achieve its criminal objective of killing as many german civilians as possible, needed a big force of Lancasters ,not mossies.

While doing it, he achieved ,at its best, dubvious benefit to the war in progress at the moment. Destroying cities did some damage to Germany's war effort. But not as much ,and by far,as a precission bombing campaign carried on by a bomber force based on the Mosquito against the economic strategic assets of Germany would've done.

It's already said avobe that the mossie flying by the night and with oboe, had an equal if not better accuracy than a daylight bomber with optical sights. We all know how much damage did the 8th AF day bombing offenive on German economy. Now double it, and you get an idea on what a combined day/night precision bombing offensive would've achieved on the german economy.

After doing this comparison keep in mind:The historical night bombings by the Bomber Command did not achieve much (from the economic point of view) on the german war effort. Out of terrorizing civilians while killing them on the thousands and injuring them on the millions, german war economy didn't suffer especially out from this attacks (any factory or strategic target hit or affected by chance in an area bombing would've been equally destroyed in a precision bombing by night...but in this second way a lot of civilian lifes would've been spared).

And now look at the loss statistics of the Lancaster over Germany, and that one of the Mossies used in night bombing operations, and try to guess the number of BRITISH lives he would've saved basing his bomber force on the mossie rather than in the Lancaster.



So harris needed the lancaster to achieve his objective. Yes, he did. And yes, he achieved his objective: he killed hundreds of thousands of german civilians, sent thousands of his own aircrews to die (when they could've been much safer in another plane with a different mission), and all to achieve a pyrric objective (at its best) instead of focusing on the german economic and military strategic targets, not killing hundreds of thousands german civilians, and saving a lot of his own aircrews' lifes, while achieving a sensible result in the war.

It's a good result for a war criminal as himself.



BTW, a mossie with Oboe needed a pilot, and a radio-operator. Not a Radio operator/navigator/bomb aimer. Oboe/Gee would make navigation easy for a trainee in navigation with radio experience, and the bomb release was automatic (no manual bomb aiming involved at all). To get a working mosquito in the air you needed a trained pilot and a trained radio-operator. Nothing more. From the human resources point of view the Mossie was so much efficient than the lancaster that the comparison simply doesn't stand up.