Author Topic: Why not use more Mosquitos  (Read 5157 times)

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #75 on: April 17, 2008, 11:36:46 AM »
All this is ridiculous. The highest German military leaders were tried and sentenced for their complicity in starting a war of conquest which eventually led to Tens of millions being killed on all sides. I will add that the top German commanders, as well as the entire German people, would have happily goosestepped along with their Fuhrer if they had kept winning. Happily sharing in the spoils of conquest. It wasnt until they started losing that Nazis became much harder to find. :lol While they were winning they were all over the place.

Fatso, as 2nd in command, signed the order implementing the final solution of the so called Jewish problem. None of which was a secret from the Allies. Both Churchill and Roosevelt knew about it almost from the start but both refused to bomb the death camps cause the Germans let it be known they would execute captured allied air men and soldiers if the death camps were bombed.

Besides we knew bombing the camps would do nothing to end the war sooner. Those bombs would be better spent being dropped on German industry or population centers which housed the workers for German industry.

As for the Jews I think what happened to them was the worst kept secret in Germany during the war. And it wasnt just the Jews but it was all the ones deemed undesirable by the euphemism loving Nazis.

Ive always believed the German cities were legitimate targets. Yes killing woman and kids is horrible but it didn't mean much to a German leadership far more interested in preserving its own survival. And it was this same leadership that was responsible for those bombs falling, not the allied bomber command.
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2008, 12:32:47 PM »
And of course you can document your claims Rich46yo?

Of course you can't, it's just inane babble!
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

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Offline Tilt

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2008, 02:32:03 PM »

In hindsight my question is would Mossies have been better in all roles and I have seen no evidence that proves they would not have been.

This was the original proposition.

...and not ?

Quote
Why didnt bomber command drop the heavies altogether in favour of mass mossie atacks.

But the answer to your 2nd question is above. The Mossie could have performed much that the lancaster was asked to carry out. Further it could have done so with fewer net losses.

There were some interesting challenges to overcome to gear production upto the figures required.

In the UK it was (mainly) the Automotive and electro mechanical industries that upgraded their training to meet the needs of increased aircraft production. Skills whilst different were transferable.

Yet the Mossie was a laminated monocoque construction based upon woods and resins. This was actually closer to furniture based engineering. A similar problem befell early Lagg production in Russia. The materials and techniques were basically foreign to the mass production aircraft industry of the day.

It would have become one of the most produced aircraft in the war to achieve the same effect.......... Over 5000 lancs and halibags were produced to maintain  the bomber force required of the RAF (and they wanted more).

Given the average bomb load ratio was one of 1:5 then based upon like for like survivability 25,000 Mossies would have to be produced. Given a 20 % increase in survivability then (with a ratio of now 1:4) we would still have required a total production of approaching 20,000. Even if we think these figures do the Mossie a disservice a final ratio of 1:3 gives the same total overal production requirement as met by the the IL2M3!

If I read Sharp & Bowyers version of the production evolution from Hatfield to Leavsden and then on, its clear that de Havilland was forced into such a high level of subcontracting that Mossie production became (famously although it should have been infamously) a cottage industry. He could not keep up with the orders he recieved from the air ministry!! Never mind a 3 to 4 fold increase.

To up gear this was beyond the capability of de Havilland although I am sure that if someone like Beavorbrook had determined that it should increase then de Havilland would have been pushed aside to allow Nuffield or some other organistaion to take over.

We should not dismiss the issue of pilots either. When Harris wanted 1000 bombers he was short of 400 trained pilots. He had to take reserve occupation pilots out of rear fields and go beg the fleet air arm for theirs. Of course later he had the benefit of canadian squadrons filling his ranks but even so from the above we note that Mossies would have required a training regime of some 3 to 4 times the number Harris needed for his Lancs.
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Offline Noir

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2008, 04:13:49 PM »
Man this is the first time I agree with rich46yo, Bombing the cities is the worst they could've done but you have to replace it in the context, and I think none of us can realize what it was to face the nazis, except the ones that were actually there.

We now know that the allies won the war, but the allies didn't know at that time. This is kindof stupid to say but that had to do EVERYTHING they could to win it, whatever the cost.
now posting as SirNuke

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2008, 04:27:10 PM »
The age old cry of the war criminal. And fascism wasn't defeated ... it wasn't even a goal.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Yarbles

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2008, 05:57:05 AM »
The age old cry of the war criminal. And fascism wasn't defeated ... it wasn't even a goal.

Your argument is essentially the ends did not justify the means. I think this proposition only stands up if you have confidence in final victory. Furthermore you dont seem to be able to get into the whole "you have to be able to kill people in order to save lives sometimes"

2 Things 1) British Bombing of civilians was not an end in itself. 2)The genocide of the Jews, Homosexuals, Mentally Ill/dissabled , Gypsies, Communists etc was.

Lumpy do you understand the difference?

What would have happened if Nazi germany had won?

Do you understand why people who consistently take the moral high ground and wont dirty their consciences with real decisions in an imperfect world with imperfect information dont get into power?

I think its cos the Nazi's of this world kill them and take over.   

In many ways the likes of Harris if we could see inside his mind may be of the highest moral character.

 
« Last Edit: April 18, 2008, 06:25:19 AM by Yarbles »
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Offline Yarbles

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2008, 06:03:24 AM »
...and not ?



It would have become one of the most produced aircraft in the war to achieve the same effect.......... Over 5000 lancs and halibags were produced to maintain  the bomber force required of the RAF (and they wanted more).


Based on my figures and understanding I would replace 5000 Lancs and Halibags over the long term with around 7500 mossies and around half as many pilots as required for the heavies.

Simply put: 2 Mossies over berlin carry more accurate ord than a Lanc and  considerably more than a Halibag. They have about 3-4 times the surviveability and can bomb I would estimate for twice as much orf the year.

Thts the answer on area bombing unless I have misinterpreted the figures
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2008, 06:20:33 AM »
The Americans should have produced the Mossie instead of the B-17/B-24, at least for the ETO/MTO theater. There was already a heavy lift capacity with the British heavies for the times when a heavy bomb load was required.

Offline Angus

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2008, 06:20:48 AM »
The age old cry of the war criminal. And fascism wasn't defeated ... it wasn't even a goal.

Now there, (While Rich46yo has some mistakes in his park), I disagree. Fighting fascism was probably the heaviest factor involved in the UK's decision to give little Hitler the long finger upwards when he made open his "appeal to reason" in 1940. So, in short, the Brits put their bets on that there would no peace WITH the wicked....at least in the long run.
Another book for your list, would be Martin Gilbert's WW2. But it's not a pleasant read. However puts ones feet on the ground.
(Keegan's Second World war is for the ones looking at the phases and the strategics, I highly recommend it, and I think they even use it as teaching material at Sandhurst)

And Tilt, - how do you end up at +20K mossies to match the Lannies and Halibutts? I sensed from the promoted data that due to more speed and lower losses, each one of them would have ended up by hauling more in their lifetime, - well, a little more calculus maybe, but you'd have to bring in the factor of a lot more lifetime right?
As for the production capability, the Spitfire was at it's time, a "first" of a new line, the old rigging was the standard (like the Hurricane) and yet the production went to 20.000. And it was made of material much less available than what the Mossie was made off. Actually, I would almost bet that the mossie was made out of wood for 2 reasons, one being DeHavilland's belief in it, and second being that both the crafts and material were amply available. And it was a private start, - the performance of the prototype simply defeated the stiffnecks at the air ministry with a checkmate!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2008, 06:26:49 AM »
The Americans should have produced the Mossie instead of the B-17/B-24, at least for the ETO/MTO theater. There was already a heavy lift capacity with the British heavies for the times when a heavy bomb load was required.

My old friend who flew both Spitfires and then P51's and ended up doing escorts over Berlin (Escorting England based B-17's) had an opinion on that. RIDICULOUS. He said that they had to lob about for 6 hours at great altitude for dropping a weight of 2-4K per B17, because they were full of guns and ammo and people and so on.
He said the escorts alone, being jabos in the first place could have done the job twice over with even more accuracy, and in case intercepted, jettison and tackle with the inbounds.
As for Mossies, his remark was "simply amazing", "almost untouchable" and "outrunning us".
Anyway, good point!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2008, 06:49:58 AM »
And of course you can document your claims Rich46yo?

Of course you can't, it's just inane babble!

                      There he goes again. Boy I wish there was an ignore feature in this forum still. Im getting tired of some of these one liner heros.
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2008, 07:52:53 AM »
That would be a "no" then Rich46yo. As I suspected.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2008, 08:07:48 AM »
Now there, (While Rich46yo has some mistakes in his park), I disagree. Fighting fascism was probably the heaviest factor involved in the UK's decision to give little Hitler the long finger upwards when he made open his "appeal to reason" in 1940. So, in short, the Brits put their bets on that there would no peace WITH the wicked....at least in the long run.

If fighting fascism was the "heaviest factor" involved in the UK's decision to go to war then why did they not finish the job? Spain was a fascist dictatorship until General Fancisco Franco's death in 1975, and was a passive ally to Germany in WWII. Fascist Spain was allowed to enter the UN in 1955, and the United States even entered into a military and trade alliance with a FASCIST nation in 1953. President Eisenhower personally went to Madrid to sign the "Pact of Madrid". Then there is Argentine and Chile ... both fascist dictatorships; one of which would later go to war on Britain over the Falkland Islands.



Your argument is essentially the ends did not justify the means.

The end does not always justify the means. I feel sorry for anyone who do not understand this.


What would have happened if Nazi germany had won?

Who knows? Perhaps the same as what happened with Spain?
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Yarbles

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2008, 08:08:55 AM »
That would be a "no" then Rich46yo. As I suspected.

Its fair to say that every statement not supported by evidence is opinion but its true also that the sources being quoted are being heavily interpreted.

Lets avoid degenerating to the level of this dysfunctional couple whos arguments all end in arguments about argueing.  
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Why not use more Mosquitos
« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2008, 08:12:59 AM »
Yes mother.  ;)
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P