6 50.s in the P-51 B

[Banshee7]

the P51 with 4 20mm was British.

your point?

[Larry]

Didnt they make 90 C models with 4 20 mms? I have found data showing both A and C.

Strip

 No such thing as P-51A.

The B and C model were the same plane. B was built in California and C in Texas. That was the only difference between them.

[Swatch]

No such thing as P-51A.

Not quite true....  these would be the USAF analogue to Mustang II and it had Allison engines  (Mustang I was designated P-51 and also had an Allison).... I think about 400 were ordered.

What I believe our thread-starter is referring to is the A-36.  It had the Allison engine, was essentially a Mustang I, but had provision for 6 .50 Brownings (also 1K bombload)  Finally, it had dive brakes...the primary distinguishing factor.

[angelsandair]

was that not an A model?
and did the A model not suck?

ehh I dont know that crud. All I know is that there was a P-51 with 4 20mms.

[Larry]

Not quite true....  these would be the USAF analogue to Mustang II and it had Allison engines  (Mustang I was designated P-51 and also had an Allison).... I think about 400 were ordered.

No that is true. There is no P51A. The P51 that had the 20mms was the British model "Mustang Mk IA" or "P51".

[Guppy35]

ehh I dont know that crud. All I know is that there was a P-51 with 4 20mms.

There were very few and they certainly weren't B or C models which as was pointed out are identical outside of where they were produced, with the B model being Inglewood California and the C Model in Texas.

[colmbo]

There is no P51A.

You sure about that?

Found this at mustangsmustangs.com:

Designated NA-99, the P-51A Mustang was ordered in numbers of 1,200 by the U.S. Army in August 1942. No ground attack here, no dive brakes, just pure fighter. This was the best fighter the U.S. had below 22,000 feet. This according to the AAF School of Applied Tactics at Orlando, FL.

The P-51A was powered by the Allison V-1710-81 which had automatic boost control and rated at 1,200 horsepower. This Allison had increased performance at altitude over the V-1710-39 used in the P-51. The propeller was a 3-blade, 10 feet 6 inch Curtiss electric. Top speed was 390 mph at 20,000 feet and the service ceiling was 31,500 feet. There were two underwing mounts for bombs or drop tanks. Gross weight increased to 10,600 lbs. max with an average load of 8,600 lbs.
Range was 750 miles at 300 mph on internal fuel. Add two 125 gallon drop tanks and you go 2,000 miles at reduced power (not that anyone want to go that far inside the P-51A, but you could if you needed to).

First flights were in February 1943 and deliveries began in March. The Mustang was delivered to the AAF in olive drab on top and a grey on bottom.

Serials for the P-51 were 43-6003 to 43-6312 starting with the P-51A-1NA and ending with the P-51A-10NA. 35 were used as recon F-6B and 50 were sent to the RAF to replace the NA-91 models earlier held back.

The P-51A served mainly as a fighter and escort in the China/Burma/India theatre (CBI). Modified versions called the F-6B, were fitted with camera equipment for recon and served in the ETO. The P-51A would see service into 1945, long after replacement models were in service. Production would be cut far short of the 1,200 ordered. As soon as the Rolls Royce Merlin modifications to the P-51 were deemed worthy, production was shifted to the new models. In all, 310 P-51As were produced by NAA.

Specifications

Model    -    P-51A
Production    -    310
Length    -    32.25
Height    -    12.2
Wingspan    -    37.04
Weight - empty    -    6433
Weight - normal T.O.    -    8600
Weight - max G.W.    -    10600
Powerplant    -    Allison V-1710-81
Horsepower    -    1200
Propeller    -    Curtiss 3-bladed electric 10'9"
Max Speed    -    390 @ 20k
Service Ceiling    -    31,350
Fuel Capacity    -    180
Drop Tanks    -    2x 75 gal
Range    -    750 / 1375+
Guns    -    4x .50 cal - 1260 rounds
Bomb / Rockets    -    2x 500 lb bombs

[Larry]

The "P51A" was the Mustang II.

[Bruv119]

The brits didnt really have a ground attack plane.  Down low the Allison engine was pretty good. 

I can just picture the conversation

"So Bob what can we use this american piece of junk for?  It sure as hell isn't a spitfire"

"Lets stick some 20mm's on it and go shoot some stuff!"

Yea!!!

[Guppy35]

The brits didnt really have a ground attack plane.  Down low the Allison engine was pretty good. 

I can just picture the conversation

"So Bob what can we use this american piece of junk for?  It sure as hell isn't a spitfire"

"Lets stick some 20mm's on it and go shoot some stuff!"

Yea!!!

The magic words are 4 20mms.  It's nothing to do with having an early Allison Mustang.  It's wanting 4 20mms and trying to add some legitimacy to the request by attaching them to a Mustang

[Strip]

The magic words are 4 20mms.  It's nothing to do with having an early Allison Mustang.  It's wanting 4 20mms and trying to add some legitimacy to the request by attaching them to a Mustang

Guppy I dont think its really that simple. There are 4 cannon birds than have much more to offer in most areas compared to a early Mustang. The Typhoon is likely to be nearly as fast or more likely even faster. The F4U-1c will out turn the B model in most aspects while having a respectable top speed. The Tempest should just about outmatch it in any category below 22,000 feet. The Hurricane can easily outpace the Mustang in every area but top speed. Plus there are a number of better planes with comparable firepower. The P-38's fire more lead weight down range while out performing in several areas.

My reason for wanting the 4 20's is my distain for the 4 50's. When I stop and think about it 6 50s would be great too. I turn fight the Poni with just about anything in the sky (except hurri's and zero's). When your messing with a Spitfire below 15k your not going to get many chances. This means killing quickly and efficently.

Strip

[Guppy35]

Guppy I dont think its really that simple. There are 4 cannon birds than have much more to offer in most areas compared to a early Mustang. The Typhoon is likely to be nearly as fast or more likely even faster. The F4U-1c will out turn the B model in most aspects while having a respectable top speed. The Tempest should just about outmatch it in any category below 22,000 feet. The Hurricane can easily outpace the Mustang in every area but top speed. Plus there are a number of better planes with comparable firepower. The P-38's fire more lead weight down range while out performing in several areas.

My reason for wanting the 4 20's is my distain for the 4 50's. When I stop and think about it 6 50s would be great too. I turn fight the Poni with just about anything in the sky (except hurri's and zero's). When your messing with a Spitfire below 15k your not going to get many chances. This means killing quickly and efficently.

Strip

But you just said it.  Disdain for the 4 50s. You want the quick kill power of the 4 20mms.  It's kind of like the Hurri IIc guys in LW.  Hope for the big hit with the big guns.
 
If you were to line up the 51s in order of importance, at least historically, you'd go:

P51B/C (RAF Mustang III)
P51D (RAF Mustang IV)
RAF Allison Mustang Is with 4 50s and 4 30s
P51A with 4 50s
A36 with 4 50s
P51 with 4 20mms

The 20mm birds were way down the list in numbers and in use.  Interestingly enough you'd probably have to say that the P51B was the most important due to the time frame it went to work and if you looked at the list of 51 Aces in the ETO in particular, the best of them became Aces in the 51B with the 4 50s.

And there were not B/C Ponies with 20mms

[5PointOh]

Think he said eveything I was going to say, thanks Guppy!

[5PointOh]

Just thought I'd add this too;

Mustang Variants

NA-73X: Original privately financed prototype
1,100-hp twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Allison V-1710-F3R engine
Designed to carry four 0.5-in and four 0.3-in machine guns, none mounted

NA-73 Mustang Mk I: 1st batch of 320 aircraft for RAF
1,150-hp twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled V-1710-F3R Allison engine
382 mph @ 13,000ft
Four 0.5-in and four 0.303-in machine guns (two .0.5s mounted on underside of engine fired through the prop)
Many fitted with cameras for reconnaissance

NA-83 Mustang Mk I: second run (300) for RAF with minor changes
One aircraft later fitted with twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin 61,
Two fitted with twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin 65 as “Mustang Mk X”
One armed with two 40-mm Vickers 'S' cannon
British experiments replacing stock Allison engine with Rolls Royce twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin engines led to dramatic performance improvements, especially at high altitude & subsequent use in all future production P-51s

NA-91 Mustang IA: 93 aircraft supplied by Lend-lease to RAF (from batch of 150)
Four 20-mm Hispano wing cannon

P-51 (NA-91) remaining Mustang IA batch (57 aircraft) retained
By US after 12/8/41
Four 0.5-in machine guns
Fitted with two K24 cameras as P-51-1s, later redesignated F-6A

P-51A (NA-99) 6433 lbs empty, 8600 lbs normal, 10,600 lbs max
Allison V-1710-81 (export V-1710-F20R) engine, 1,200 hp @ takeoff , 1125 hp @ 18,000 ft
340 mph @ 5000 ft, 360 mph @ 10,000 ft, 380 mph @ 15,000 ft, 390 mph @ 20,000 ft
2.2 minutes to 5,000 ft, 4.4 minutes to10,000ft, 9.1 minutes to 20,000ft. Service ceiling was 31,350 ft
No nose guns, four 0.5-in wing machine guns, pylons for two 500-lbs bombs

310 built, 50 to RAF as “Mustang Mk II”

XP-51B (NA-101) originally “XP-78”
Based on RAF experiments, two P-51s re-engined with 1,450 hp Packard twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin V-1650-3 twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlins

441 mph at 29,800 ft
Carburetor air intake moved from above to below nose
Exhaust expelled through individual stacks
Ailerons modified
Intercooler & radiators extensively modified
No guns

P-51B (NA-102/104) production version of XP-51B
6,840lbs empty, 9,200lbs normal, 11,200lbs max
1,620 hp Packard twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin V-1650-3 twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin

388 mph @ 5000 ft, 406 mph @ 10,000 ft, 427 mph @ 20,000 ft, 430 mph @ 25,000 ft, 440 mph @ 30,000 ft
1.8 minutes to 5000 ft, 3.6 minutes to 10,000 ft, 7 minutes to 20,000 ft. Service ceiling 42,000 ft
Four 0.5-inch Browning MG53-2 guns in wings, 350 rounds each gun, and 280 rounds each outer gun
NA-104 wing hardpoints strengthened for 1,000-lbs bombs
Final 550 aircraft added 85-US gal rear fuselage tank (P-51B-7-NAs), also retrofitted to some earlier aircraft

Green camouflage paint removed later in production run to reduce weight/drag
1,988 built, 25 to RAF
Mustang Mk III British equivalent P-51B/C (274 P-51Bs and 626 P-51Cs)
British addition of "Malcolm Hood" or "Bubble" canopy on Mustang III improved visibility, retrofitted to many P-51B/Cs

P-51C (NA-103/111) Similar to P-51 B but built in Dallas TX
6985 lbs empty, 9800 lbs normal, 11,800 lbs max
1695 hp Packard twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin V-1650-7
395 mph @ 5000 ft, 417 mph @ 10,000 ft, 426 mph @ 20,000 ft, 439 mph @ 25,000 ft, 435 mph @ 30,000 ft
1.6 minutes to 5000 ft, 3.1 minutes to 10,000 ft, 6.9 minutes to 20,000 ft. Service ceiling 41,900 ft
1,750 built

XP-51D (NA-106)
 Two P-51 Bs with teardrop canopy, cut-down rear fuselage
Six 0.5-in wing guns (Not mounted)

P-51D (NA-109/111/122/124) production version of XP-51 D

7,125lbs empty,10,100lbs normal, 12,100lbs max
1,685-hp V-1650-7 twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin engine

395 mph @ 5000ft, 416 mph @ 10,000ft, 424 mph @ 20,000 ft, 437 mph @ 25,000 ft
Initial climb 3,475ft/minute, 1.7 minutes to 5,00ft, 3.3 minutes to10,000ft, 7.3 minutes to 20,000ft
Service ceiling 41,900 ft
Six 0.5-in wing guns

K-14 computing gyro gun sight
Tear drop Plexiglas canopy now standard
Dorsal fin for stability added early in production, retrofitted to many Bs, Cs, & early Ds

Block 25 on, provision for four 5-in rockets added
Production: 6,502 (Inglewood) 1,454 (Dallas) -- 280 to RAF as “Mustang Mk IV”

P-51 K (NA-111)
Dallas version of P-51D with smaller diameter Aeroproducts propeller
Block 10 & later: four stubs for 5-in rockets
1,500 built -- 594 to RAF as “Mustang Mk IVA”
Redesignated F-51K in 1948

Don’t get your hopes up

P-51H (NA-126/129)
 Lightweight version similar to XP-51F except longer fuselage, taller fin
V-1650-9A twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled Merlin 1,380 hp /take-off, 2,218 hp/at altitude w/water injection

6585lbs empty, 9500lbs normal, 11,500lbs max
1380 hp @ takeoff , 2218 hp war emergency power @ 10,200 ft., 1900 hp @ 20,000 ft w/water injection
444 mph at 5000 ft, 463 mph at 15,000 ft, and 487 mph at 25,000 ft
5000ft in 1.5 minutes, 15,000ft in 5 minutes
Six 0.5-in wing guns
555 NA-126 s completed, 1,445 NA-129s cancelled

First flown by Bob Chilton on February 3, 1945, whether or not the P-51H participated in combat in World War II is still controversial


A-36A (NA-97) "Apache," later "Invader," finally "Mustang" dive bomber variant with dive brakes in wings

8,370 lbs normal, 10,700 lbs max
Six 0.5-in machine guns (two in lower fuselage nose & four in the wings), 2 X 500 lbs bombs
Pylons for two 500-lbs bombs;
Allison twelve-cylinder Vee liquid-cooled V-1710-87 (F21R) 1325 hp at 3000 ft
356 mph @ 5000 ft "clean," 310 mph w/two 500-lbs bombs
500 built, three to RAF

[CPW]

You may need this...

The first batch of P-51Ds was the -1NA block, NA-110. This was 100 P-51Ds unassembled to Australia. Another oddity, it is reported that the first four in this block still had the B model birdcage canopy.


http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p51variants/P-51D.shtml