Drank the glock-aid

[bj229r]

The XD is more comfortable to aim and shoot with it's grip angle than the Glock. Both are very dependable. The release is better on the XD.

My wife has a full-size Glock (22, I think) and she loves it. (The job she had mandated a .40/10mm or better--no 9'mm's) Now she wants a .45 sub-compact, but she HATES the XD, grip just doesn't suit her hand---Smith makes one she's quite enamored with

[Toad]

That pretty much reflects the comments I've had when showing the Glocks, XDs and M&Ps to women at the gun counter. The guys are all over the map; some pick one, others pick another. Women, however, seem to favor the M&P grip with either the small or medium insert.

Heck, I have big hands and I favor the medium insert. Something about the large insert just doesn't feel right to me. I've put my palm on it but I can't put my finger on it. 

[BBBB]

Glok, my point is I don't need replacement barrels, extended slide releases, extended mag releases, lasers, compensator's, replacement guide rods and springs to make me a better shooter. I can go out and buy a Glock from the gun store and shoot just as well with it that same day as I can with my own gun that I have owned for years. Because, I have eliminated the need to add things to guns to make up for my lack of understanding and operation of the weapon.

 You can toss out all the insults and innuendos you want. How I shoot a camera has nothing to do with my knowledge or skill level handling a firearm. The fact that you would connect to two, further shows your clear ignorance on the subject.

 If you had taken the time to go out and get some real training, I have no question your instructor would have told you to remove that grip laser. It has been proven time and time again, what you do in practice raises its head in a shooting situation. You can think you will be cool, calm and collected all you want. It has been shown time and time again, even with people who have been in multiple shoot outs in their life time. Cool, calm, collected, all go right out the window when the bullets start flying.

 Assuming you live though the first critical half second and can engage your attacker, you body has already went into a predatory mode if you will. You have already received your bodies adrenaline dump, your hands will start to shake, your eyes are darting back and forth rapidly, which is leading to tunnel vision, your chest muscles tighten up and breathing becomes labored. Sounds become muffled, lights become dimmer. Time it's self seems to slow down.

 Situational awareness goes right out the window, a simple, what would seem like the natural act of finding cover is like doing trigonometry on the fly. Muscle memory is going to kick in. You will find yourself holding the weapon like you did at the range, in your case you are going to be looking for that little red dot from the laser, and here is where we reach a critical point.

 What happens if that laser fails? You have spent most of your time shooting, by using that laser. I am sure your response is going to be "just switch to the sights". It is not that easy. Most people in a shooting do something called "point shooting" or "instinctive shooting". This is where you don't aim with the sights, but quite literately, reactively, point the weapon at their attacker and fire. Some will even tell you that they didn't even take the time to look at the sights, it was all just a reaction.

 So lets get back to that laser. Your laser in effect can be used for point shooting. However it is not foolproof. What happens if it breaks? Now your just winging it. I am sure in your little high speed-low drag world you will kill the bad guy without even batting an eye or breaking a sweat. Which is fine by me.

 However, when someone comes in here and asks for advice and all you can do is snatch race gun photos from the internet and tell him how he needs to add this laser, that extended mag release and that extended slide release. All you are doing is further complicating the matter. He is very obviously a new gun owner and operator.

 You used the mall ninja/high speed gun store employee routine on him. More to say "look at me and what I got" than to really help. A good, responsible, knowledgeable gun owner/operator, would have told him to practice a lot, learn to overcome his problem and if that still doesn't work then maybe make changes to the weapon to better suit his needs.

 If you knew more about Glocks than just hanging crap off of them, then you would know a few hundred rounds though the Glock 19 loosens everything right up. From the slide release, to the slide it's self. In your world the single most important life saving device is a crimson trace laser slapped on your pistol. In my world the single most important life saving device is training and knowledge. That pretty much sums up what I said above and what you have shown here. I don't need to know you personally to know the type of shooter you are. Your words here have spoken volumes about the type of shooter you are.

 Modas, check your PMs

[Toad]

Don't forget practice, practice, practice. 

You wouldn't believe how many folks I deal with that want to buy a gun for the first time and just one box of ammo because "i'll never ever use all 50 anyway."   

Takes a while to convince them that they either don't need a gun at all or they will be buying a whole lot more ammo sooner or later.

[FX1]

Most people in a shooting do something called "point shooting" or "instinctive shooting". This is where you don't aim with the sights, but quite literately, reactively, point the weapon at their attacker and fire.

The only way to really learn this is to practice. Dry fire drills can help when you cant get to the range.

I have a STI with a Cmore on top and some day i practice without the dot. Also i have a stripped down ruger mk2 that has no sights for learning to become a better point shooter.

We had a range shoot with some of my friends a couple weeks ago. I placed a nice small steel 5 target course up for the fun of it. During the 3 days my best time was 2.93 with the no sight ruger.

Lasers, dots and iron sights go out the window when your life depends on it.

[Maverick]

I used to compete with "combat pistol shooting" all the way back to the early and middle 70's. In the beginning it was a nice way to practice at something other than plain paper targets at known ranges. It didn't take long to turn into a gamesmanship situation. Folks started showing up with all kinds of modded weapons and holsters. Vented or ported extended barrels, high profile (read that as BIG) sights including scopes, extended mags, (Browning HP was starting a fad then) flared magazine well extensions, large then very large extensions to mag releases as well as slide locks. There were other things as well as lighter recoil springs, skelotonized slides, custom hammers, extended triggers and custom holsters with no thumb snap. Hell some of them were practically no holster at all, just a clip at the muzzle and another near the grip. It was the same for the mag carriers as they were a very small holder that left most of the mag open and uncovered in groups up to 5 or so.

All of the "race gun" stuff coupled with target "scenarios" that tended to cause the shooter to make very bad tactical moves (if any moves) with no real world considerations such as using good cover and maneuver. The goal was to make the minimum hits in the shortest possible time irregardless of the "tactical situation" and certainly without any consideration of incoming fire. It didn't take long to almost eliminate anyone shooting with real world gear like my uniform duty weapon and belt. Those with the non race gun's certainly were not competitive under the gamesmanship environment.

I knew several folks who were also LEO's at the time. Not one of them carried their "race gun gear" on duty. It was far from "practical" for real street uses including the weapon.

[FX1]

Don't forget practice, practice, practice. 

You wouldn't believe how many folks I deal with that want to buy a gun for the first time and just one box of ammo because "i'll never ever use all 50 anyway."   

Takes a while to convince them that they either don't need a gun at all or they will be buying a whole lot more ammo sooner or later.

You need 500 rounds just to brake in your body to the gun. After a long weekend when i do shoot over 2k shot placement becomes second nature.

We had a newb out for the weekend. He purchased a kimber and brought 500 rounds out to the range. We ran .22s for the first day and a half and on the last day he was on fire with the kimber. His best time with the kimber was 3.83, man he had a smile from ear to ear. He didnt take one round home.

[Megalodon]

The Glock 26 barrel is only 3.46 inches.  Adding another half inch with an extended barrel thus still leaves the gun under a 4 inch barrel length.    So no, concealability is still no problem with the gun.

Virtually all of the leading practical pistol competitors use extended barrels on their competition guns.   Would you call them a "ricer" to their face?

Here is a nice handgun cutomized for unlimited OPEN IPSC competition:

(Image removed from quote.)
.

Is that a sight on top and what kind is it? aim point floating dot?

[FX1]

Is that a sight on top and what kind is it? aim point floating dot?

CMORE

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=364811&t=11082005

[LTARGlok]

Glok, my point is I don't need replacement barrels, extended slide releases, extended mag releases, lasers, compensator's,

That is not how you worded your earlier message.

You can toss out all the insults and innuendos you want.  How I shoot a camera has nothing to do with my knowledge or skill level handling a firearm. The fact that you would connect to two, further shows your clear ignorance on the subject.

Well, the truth is that I know virtually nothing about you really.   Here on the Internet, there is really no way to even know that a person is telling the truth.   So about the only thing that I can definitely tell about you is that your photography skills are lacking.   And that most definitely reveals something about your personal dedication and ability to master a skill, from a rather general standpoint.

And while I may have made an innuendo about your photography skills, you certainly are the one who first started here before my statement with making insulting remarks, and acting so very condescendingly towards me.   If you don't like being talked to like this, then why did you first act so condescendingly towards me??

However, when someone comes in here and asks for advice and all you can do is snatch race gun photos from the internet and tell him how he needs to add this laser, that extended mag release and that extended slide release. All you are doing is further complicating the matter. He is very obviously a new gun owner and operator.

I only displayed that photo because it had the more ergonomic slide release on it, and I wanted to show him what it looked like.   I certainly did not imply that he needed to customize his gun like that, so I really don't see your point.   I only mentioned the laser sight grips because he was himself talking about making enhancements for seeing better at night in his follow-up post.   And there is no better type of sight to use at night than a laser, no matter what you may say or believe.

You used the mall ninja/high speed gun store employee routine on him. More to say look at me and what I got" than to really help. A good, responsible, knowledgeable gun owner/operator, would have told him to practice a lot, learn to overcome his problem and if that still doesn't work then maybe make changes to the weapon to better suit his needs.

Once again, you are misrepresenting what has gone on in this thread.   He asked about a specific issue: the difficult to use slide release on the Glock.   And I showed him how he could get a much more ergonomic and easier to use slide release put on his gun.

My post with the photos of my Glock in it was in response to one of YOUR posts, not to one of his.   I was taking issue with your assertion about the gun being dirty causing the difficulty in operating the slide release.   And since you had already posted photos of your Glock before I did, why should I not also be allowed to post photos of my gun too?   Anyway, my post with those photos was clearly a response to you, and not to Modas, as you have so falsely claimed here.

If you knew more about Glocks than just hanging crap off of them, then you would know a few hundred rounds though the Glock 19 loosens everything right up. From the slide release, to the slide it's self. In your world the single most important life saving device is a crimson trace laser slapped on your pistol. In my world the single most important life saving device is training and knowledge. That pretty much sums up what I said above and what you have shown here. I don't need to know you personally to know the type of shooter you are. Your words here have spoken volumes about the type of shooter you are.

Again, you are being very dishonest here regarding representing this discussion.  I said that the best Life saving ACCESSORY he could ADD to his gun would be the Crimson Trace sight.   Modas was talking about installing other accessories to deal with shooting at night, and in my opinion the Crimson Trace does a much better job.   So that was the actual context of the discussion:  which accessory would be the best investment and do the job the best.   I think that any fair-minded person would see that.

In any event, I have greatly resented your condescending tone in ALL of the messages that you have posted here towards me.   And now, in addition, you are making false representations of what I have said.  Your persistence in making such unfair statements is absolutely pointless and senseless.

.

[Masherbrum]

The only way to really learn this is to practice. Dry fire drills can help when you cant get to the range.

I have a STI with a Cmore on top and some day i practice without the dot. Also i have a stripped down ruger mk2 that has no sights for learning to become a better point shooter.

We had a range shoot with some of my friends a couple weeks ago. I placed a nice small steel 5 target course up for the fun of it. During the 3 days my best time was 2.93 with the no sight ruger.

Lasers, dots and iron sights go out the window when your life depends on it.

Bingo!   Most people laugh at folks taking .22's to the range.   I used to shoot the crap out of my friends "Slabside Ruger".    It keeps you in check with the fundamentals.   

But your last sentence says it all.   

[Masherbrum]

Glok, my point is I don't need replacement barrels, extended slide releases, extended mag releases, lasers, compensator's, replacement guide rods and springs to make me a better shooter. I can go out and buy a Glock from the gun store and shoot just as well with it that same day as I can with my own gun that I have owned for years. Because, I have eliminated the need to add things to guns to make up for my lack of understanding and operation of the weapon.

 You can toss out all the insults and innuendos you want. How I shoot a camera has nothing to do with my knowledge or skill level handling a firearm. The fact that you would connect to two, further shows your clear ignorance on the subject.

 If you had taken the time to go out and get some real training, I have no question your instructor would have told you to remove that grip laser. It has been proven time and time again, what you do in practice raises its head in a shooting situation. You can think you will be cool, calm and collected all you want. It has been shown time and time again, even with people who have been in multiple shoot outs in their life time. Cool, calm, collected, all go right out the window when the bullets start flying.

 Assuming you live though the first critical half second and can engage your attacker, you body has already went into a predatory mode if you will. You have already received your bodies adrenaline dump, your hands will start to shake, your eyes are darting back and forth rapidly, which is leading to tunnel vision, your chest muscles tighten up and breathing becomes labored. Sounds become muffled, lights become dimmer. Time it's self seems to slow down.

 Situational awareness goes right out the window, a simple, what would seem like the natural act of finding cover is like doing trigonometry on the fly. Muscle memory is going to kick in. You will find yourself holding the weapon like you did at the range, in your case you are going to be looking for that little red dot from the laser, and here is where we reach a critical point.

 What happens if that laser fails? You have spent most of your time shooting, by using that laser. I am sure your response is going to be "just switch to the sights". It is not that easy. Most people in a shooting do something called "point shooting" or "instinctive shooting". This is where you don't aim with the sights, but quite literately, reactively, point the weapon at their attacker and fire. Some will even tell you that they didn't even take the time to look at the sights, it was all just a reaction.

 So lets get back to that laser. Your laser in effect can be used for point shooting. However it is not foolproof. What happens if it breaks? Now your just winging it. I am sure in your little high speed-low drag world you will kill the bad guy without even batting an eye or breaking a sweat. Which is fine by me.

 However, when someone comes in here and asks for advice and all you can do is snatch race gun photos from the internet and tell him how he needs to add this laser, that extended mag release and that extended slide release. All you are doing is further complicating the matter. He is very obviously a new gun owner and operator.

 You used the mall ninja/high speed gun store employee routine on him. More to say "look at me and what I got" than to really help. A good, responsible, knowledgeable gun owner/operator, would have told him to practice a lot, learn to overcome his problem and if that still doesn't work then maybe make changes to the weapon to better suit his needs.

 If you knew more about Glocks than just hanging crap off of them, then you would know a few hundred rounds though the Glock 19 loosens everything right up. From the slide release, to the slide it's self. In your world the single most important life saving device is a crimson trace laser slapped on your pistol. In my world the single most important life saving device is training and knowledge. That pretty much sums up what I said above and what you have shown here. I don't need to know you personally to know the type of shooter you are. Your words here have spoken volumes about the type of shooter you are.

 Modas, check your PMs

Excellent post BBBB!   Hats off man, I mean it.   All the crap we've been through just wen under the bridge. 

It took me about 500 rounds and the simple addition of a Hogue Handall to my USP 45 to "get a proper fit".   I've shot my shooting partners Glock 23C and he regrets NOT GETTING the Glock 23.   

IMO, telling someone to "mod this, mod that" is problematic.   Modifying barrels is pointless unless for VERY COMPETITIVE shooting.   I emailed Wayne Novak himself, told him what I have and that I had about 10,000 rounds through the barrel on my USP.   His response?    "Jay, your USP isn't even close to being broken in yet, the ONLY thing I would do for you is a $125 Reliability package."    I have stock everything with the exception of the Hogue Handall.   I've thought about getting only Night Sights and would ONLY get MMC or Novak sights for it.   

If you're "adding extended this, extended that (magazines excluded)", you bought the WRONG gun for your hand size.   I can access every release (I do the combat rack and do not use the slide release, but can reach it nonetheless), the hammer and NOT have to break my grip, with my index finger just off of the trigger (for safety).    I do not "hate Glocks, hate Sigs", etc.  I liek them all but Beretta and it's just that I bought a used USP 45 for $500 off of my Uncle in 1999 and it fits my large hands.   To date is the best $500 I ever spent.   I've thrown 7,500 round through this since I've had it.   

IMO, Lasers are a crutch.   They also give you a "false sense of security".    If you have a handgun for personal defense and NEED to have a laser, that laser won't find the intruder wearing black, navy blue clothes ANY EASIER than someone without it.   

[Masherbrum]

The only way to really learn this is to practice. Dry fire drills can help when you cant get to the range.

I have a STI with a Cmore on top and some day i practice without the dot. Also i have a stripped down ruger mk2 that has no sights for learning to become a better point shooter.

We had a range shoot with some of my friends a couple weeks ago. I placed a nice small steel 5 target course up for the fun of it. During the 3 days my best time was 2.93 with the no sight ruger.

Lasers, dots and iron sights go out the window when your life depends on it.

I'd love to see a photo of your STI.   <<S>> FX

[BBBB]

That is not how you worded your earlier message.


Well, the truth is that I know virtually nothing about you really.   Here on the Internet, there is really no way to even know that a person is telling the truth.   So about the only thing that I can definitely tell about you is that your photography skills are lacking.   And that most definitely reveals something about your personal dedication and ability to master a skill, from a rather general standpoint.

And while I may have made an innuendo about your photography skills, you certainly are the one who first started here before my statement with making insulting remarks, and acting so very condescendingly towards me.   If you don't like being talked to like this, then why did you first act so condescendingly towards me??



I only displayed that photo because it had the more ergonomic slide release on it, and I wanted to show him what it looked like.   I certainly did not imply that he needed to customize his gun like that, so I really don't see your point.   I only mentioned the laser sight grips because he was himself talking about making enhancements for seeing better at night in his follow-up post.   And there is no better type of sight to use at night than a laser, no matter what you may say or believe.

Once again, you are misrepresenting what has gone on in this thread.   He asked about a specific issue: the difficult to use slide release on the Glock.   And I showed him how he could get a much more ergonomic and easier to use slide release put on his gun.

My post with the photos of my Glock in it was in response to one of YOUR posts, not to one of his.   I was taking issue with your assertion about the gun being dirty causing the difficulty in operating the slide release.   And since you had already posted photos of your Glock before I did, why should I not also be allowed to post photos of my gun too?   Anyway, my post with those photos was clearly a response to you, and not to Modas, as you have so falsely claimed here.


Again, you are being very dishonest here regarding representing this discussion.  I said that the best Life saving ACCESSORY he could ADD to his gun would be the Crimson Trace sight.   Modas was talking about installing other accessories to deal with shooting at night, and in my opinion the Crimson Trace does a much better job.   So that was the actual context of the discussion:  which accessory would be the best investment and do the job the best.   I think that any fair-minded person would see that.

In any event, I have greatly resented your condescending tone in ALL of the messages that you have posted here towards me.   And now, in addition, you are making false representations of what I have said.  Your persistence in making such unfair statements is absolutely pointless and senseless.

.

 If you would have read the post I made instead of looking at the pictures you would have read those photos were taken on the fly at work. On top of that they were taken with the camera on my PDA. Don't you have a laser to attach to something or an over sized barrel to install? As for the rest of your banter..yawn.

 Modas, you have my message and my phone number if you have any other questions don't hesitate to call.

[LTARGlok]

If you would have read the post I made instead of looking at the pictures you would have read those photos were taken on the fly at work. On top of that they were taken with the camera on my PDA.

Why didn't you simply say that before?   Using a PDA's very simple digital camera would then obviously account for why you could not get a properly focused photo. 

However, doing something on the fly is not by any means an issue at all.   Do you think that I did anything special in taking my snapshots??   All I did was to push the macro mode button, and then manually focus.   I was simply using more advanced equipment that had more features than what you used.

Perhaps having superior technology does indeed give folks an edge in performance.   


.