Author Topic: The defeat of fascism in WWII.  (Read 4319 times)

Offline Halo46

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2008, 06:31:28 PM »
Does anyone actually believe fascism was defeated in WWII or that defeating fascism was actually a goal of the western allies?

It is my opinion that an ideology can not be defeated in and of itself, that should be evident by just perusing the boards. The goal of the western allies was to defend against aggression. What rhetoric came after this is purely for the sake of propaganda or to further political agendas of those involved. Many countries used the axis aggression to pursue expansionist ideas of their own, but that is the nature of our beast. The aggressive countries were defeated, and that was the goal

History repeats itself, and will continue to do so. From Gilgamesh to Tom Clancy, the history of man is expressed. We are what we are, and to be anything else is a chore. Some are up for it, others not. The problems created by the First World War (more likely extending back to Napolean or even earlier) are still being dealt with today, though many of the allies and axis countries have changed allegiances. Since the past is connected to the future, we are all just chasing our tails in the end.

This is my take on the question/s posed, I make no claims to be an expert on anything, except maybe eating chocolate.
Used to fly as Halo46, GRHalo, Hobo and Punk at the end.

Offline Angus

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2008, 04:03:56 AM »
Heh, tell that to the people of Stanley.


I have tried hard to find a reply that does not sound insulting. I'm left with only this: No, it is not "simple". Not by a long shot.

Well, give me a few western fascist states today? Or western Nazi states? Nazi or fascist states in the 1st world?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Lumpy

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2008, 01:50:40 PM »
Heh, now THAT is a loaded question. Why limit the search to "western" or "1st world". Is fascism dead if it only survives in the 3rd world? Obviously not.

Here are some lists of fascist movements in the world categorized by country:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fascist_movements_by_country_A-F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fascist_movements_by_country_G-M
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fascist_movements_by_country_N-T
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fascist_movements_by_country_U-Z

And if you need me to name a fascist government today I would say that China probably is the most powerful fascist state around. China is no longer communist since they have embraced capitalism and personal property, but that capitalism is highly regulated. The Chinese government is also despotic and oppressive, especially towards non-Chinese people like the Tibetans and religious people like Christians. By all commonly accepted definitions China is now a fascist state.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Angus

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2008, 06:33:31 AM »
Yes, but no fascist controlled country in the 1st world of old.
China was an interesting point though. I was more thinking of Zimbabwe.
But they are not of the old 1st world. Think, you had 3 of the more powerful European states under fascist governments in WW2, as well as the most powerful state of the far east. And even if China is an interesting point, it is no match for the definition that Japan had...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kweassa

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2008, 08:09:48 AM »
Quote
Yes, but no fascist controlled country in the 1st world of old.

 China was an interesting point though. I was more thinking of Zimbabwe. But they are not of the old 1st world. Think, you had 3 of the more powerful European states under fascist governments in WW2, as well as the most powerful state of the far east. And even if China is an interesting point, it is no match for the definition that Japan had...

 The defeat of the Axis was of historical importance in the fact that each of the combatants ultimately had to go through a rather dramatic split between the nationalistic element of fascism and its other major components - as in the case of Great Britain where it can be said that the "jingoistic" patriotic zeal of the populace and the governing bodies of the country finally distanced itself from the continental fascitic doctrines of Italy and Germany. Before the outbreak of WW2, fascism in its broader term, as Lumpy had mentioned, was a major political force in almost ever nation who would in the future form the Allies, with Soviet Russia as an exception. Naturally, the defeat of European fascism dealt a major blow to the fascist political  parties within the Allied nations, and the opening of the Cold War had set a new bipolar political environment where liberalism and communism would take opposite stances.

 However, fascism didn't die out, even in the "1st world". With the implosion communist blocs starting from 1992, the bipolar political struggle between liberalism and communism, which dominated everything else over all these years, also disintegrated into thin air. And with that disintegration resurfaced the old fascistic tendencies which was nurtured and reared by the "New World Order" - particularly in the case of Europe and Russia.

 The rise of fascism usually coincides with times of major economical setbacks, as the populace loses faith in the old conservative-liberalist government. At the same time the absence of a respectable left-wing alternative drives the masses into the political ideals of a powerful nation-state, which would take strong-armed, agressive initiatives against domestic problems and "unite" the people for common welfare. Unfortunately this emphasis in unity often comes with a catch, in that in manifests in a form of "unity against a common enemy". For example, in the case of the USA, the fascistic element in a formal political party is certainly weak, however the basic stance its populace and government takes against the rest of the world, in the light of recent terrorist attacks can certainly be viewed as a sort of "fascism", in the sense that it opts for a near-totalitarian cooperation of the masses towards an ideal of "national security" and "order" at the expense of individual freedoms and democratic ideals.

 In Europe, the destruction of communism has given rebirth to an old breed of fascist political parties - such as the "Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands" or "Deutsche Volksunion" of Germany, whom advocates aggressive anti-immigration laws, denial of the existence of the Holocaust, with suspected political activism consisting of domestic terror and violence against minor ethnic groups within Germany. The notorious "Front Nationale" and its spin-off, the "Mouvement pour la France", with infamous politicians such as Jean-Marie LePen, also advocates simular ideals as its German counterparts. The Italian "Movimento Sociale Italiano", and "Azione Sociale", are more or less direct descendants of Mussolini's party, and are very active as a major political force, boasting 10~15% followers across the country, with 41 senators and 71 government officials.

 Perhaps the most dismaying of them all, would be the resurfacing of the old "Islamicization of Europe" crap by British ultra-nationalists as of late. This "Islamicization" crap, which its ancient roots may be traced back as far as the 11th century, had once become a major political issue during the 19th century when nationalism was at its peak. It disapperead around WW1 and WW2 when the Ottoman Turk empire was ultimately subdued, and hasn't been heard of since until recently - in the light of 9.11, the high numbers of Mediterranean/North African immigrations to Europe, and the public loss of faith in the old British Conservative party. Despite the overall numbers of Muslims in Europe still remain around 4%, British ultra-nationalists have dug up the "Islamicization" propaganda and has been using it against the multicultural, multiethnic ideals of which both traditional conservatives and leftwing political parties of Europe have been long advocating for. They maintain a racial purity of a sort must be maintained to protect the "British way of life" and the "British culture", against a "mongrelization" and "Islamicization" of cultures which a conspiracy-driven leftwing government (the British Labor Party) has been rooting for.

 
 Russia, is probably the worst case scenario in which a natural and domesticated form of fascism has grown up to replace a communist system. The speedy transtion to capitalism has left a deep mark of social injustice and inequality where the new elites consisting of "robber-barons" and the mob, have virtually taken over the country. A deep feeling of frustration resides within many Russians where a once powerful country, has now been thrown into virtual chaos of the capitalist market, where the government system has failed to maintain order and injustice rules the streets. The once communist country is now entrapped in an opposite extreme, in which a blind patriotic zeal calls for an iron-fisted government that would subdue the chaos and bring order to Russia - a prime opportunity for weasles like Putin to become a "legal dictator" by bending the rules and toying with the election system, as well as moving the army and the police to violently crush the opposition parties of Russia.


 More than sixty decades have passed since the defeat of Nazi Germany, and yet in many different forms, the very dangers which haunted humanity all those years ago still persist - especially in the "1st World" countries. It serves as a reminder that fascism is not a special, or an isolated event which has transpired, but rather it is a delicate and yet at the same time a brutal perversion of the democratic ideals, which is innate in the democratical system. When people are blindly driven by a totalitarian ideal, and when a dictatoral being grabs the opportunity of it all, people willingly, "democratically" go turncoat against the very essence of democracy by perverting their entire system into a machine of unity against common hatred for a fellow human being.

 Oh yeah, fascism is very much alive everywhere. It just hasn't reached its full potential as it had 60 decades ago. Perhaps it never will reach such extremes, after the experience of WW2, but then again it is entirely possible that it might one day become powerful enough to at least send a significant numbers of law makers and government officials in a "1st World" country. Such signs of danger are showing up in many cases, which should remind the public of its united duty as a citizen to stop such political cancer cells from spreading.
 

Offline Angus

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2008, 08:51:07 AM »
Pretty good. And this one:
"Naturally, the defeat of European fascism dealt a major blow to the fascist political  parties within the Allied nations"
Was IMHO good.
BTW, you'd say sixty years, not decades....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kweassa

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2008, 08:58:01 AM »
Quote
BTW, you'd say sixty years, not decades....

 Yeowwtch, you're right. "Six" decades, not "sixty"...  :confused:

 English really ain't me first language.. really shows in these kinda mistakes.. *blechh*

 

Offline Angus

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2008, 09:47:43 AM »
Thought it was, and this is not fawning!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kweassa

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2008, 11:56:50 AM »

 On a side note, it's kinda interesting.

 The most common mistake I make is mixing up "hear" and "here"... since when I write something down in English, I seem to think it inside my head phonetically. I pronounce "I go here" in my head, and then write down "I go hear", not realizing I've used the wrong word.

 Phooey for faulty brain activity..

 

Offline Angus

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2008, 01:08:14 PM »
Similar things happen to me all the time, like mixing up "t" and "d". And then the typos....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Lumpy

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2008, 03:55:35 PM »
Excellent post Kweassa. :)


Angus, again, this thread is about the defeat of (or rather failure to defeat) fascism. It is not limited to the "western", "1st" or "old" world. That you keep trying to infuse such false limitations on the discussion is at best disingenuous.

And there were hardly three powerful fascist nations in Europe. Spain was anything but powerful, still recovering from a devastating civil war. And Italy, while powerful on paper, proved to have quite hollow legions and more of a burden to Germany than an ally. In reality there was only one powerful fascist nation in Europe at the time.

Also China is now far more powerful than Japan ever was. China has the largest army and air force in the world, and is building the largest navy in the world. China is a nuclear power with missiles that can reach any country in the world. China also has an economic strangle hold on America and to a lesser degree Europe. If (when) China decides to expand they will be unstoppable on the Asian landmass. The Chinese think long-term, always has.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 03:58:58 PM by Lumpy »
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Angus

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2008, 04:37:31 PM »
Lumpy:
"Angus, again, this thread is about the defeat of (or rather failure to defeat) fascism. It is not limited to the "western", "1st" or "old" world. That you keep trying to infuse such false limitations on the discussion is at best disingenuous."

Not sure where I stepped on your tail here, but I'll try to make my point clearer.
Firstly, the thread topic is "The defeat of fascism in WW2". So, I try to stick with the fascist states of WW2.
Secondly, those were mainly 4, Germany, Italy, Spain and Japan. 3 on the same continent, while the fourth was the most powerful country in the far east.
Thirdly, they proved to be quite an adversary for the western nations as well as the USSR with Spain staying away. The whole deal....WW2.
Fourthly, they were routed, that was the outcome of WW2, and after that we have not witnessed a highly advanced (militarily especially) fascist state in the area of especially Europe.
But the threat prevails, if I may be so false to claim so.

Dohhh  :huh
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Lumpy

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2008, 06:33:36 PM »
I'm slightly annoyed that you continually try to limit the discussion to the Axis powers, while the discussion is not about the Axis powers, but about fascism. Even in your latest post you use limiting terms like "mainly" and "especially Europe". You also seem ignorant of the fact that there were far ... FAR more than four fascist nations during WWII, and that the defeated Axis powers spawned new fascist nations immediately after the war.

List of fascist nations under and shortly after WWII:

Germany

Italy

Japan

Spain

Portugal

Austria

Greece - Joannis Metaxas' dictature

Brazil

Chile

Slovakia

Vichy France

Romania

Croatia

Hungary

Norway (under Quisling 43-45)

Argentina - Juan Pern admired Mussolini and established his own pseudo-fascist regime. After he died, his third wife and vice-president Isabel Pern was deposed by a military junta.

Paraguay - Alfredo Stroessner's Colorado Party made Paraguay a safe haven for Nazi war criminals such as Mengele.

Taiwan (1949-1988) - Chiang Kai-shek and his fascist Kuomintang troops occupied Taiwan after being evicted from the mainland by the Communist armies of Mao Zedong. He ruled Taiwan with an iron fist, denying the native Taiwanese population civil rights, maintaining a strong secret police force and punishing dissent ruthlessly while at the same time setting Taiwan on the road to prosperity. His son Chiang Ching-kuo began the move to democracy shortly before his death.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Angus

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2008, 04:04:13 AM »
List of fascist nations under and shortly after WWII:

Germany I know, that mustache guy
Italy I know, that cocky short guy
Japan Yadda, and hard core
Spain The other guy with mustache
Portugal Missed that one
Austria Yes, because of the little Austrian
Greece - Joannis Metaxas' dictature...when was that?
Brazil Missed that one, but they dumped the system
Chile now THERE you're talking.
Slovakia- Under Axis control in WW2?
Vichy France Same
Romania Basically same
Croatia pro Axis
Hungary Same
Norway (under Quisling 43-45) Installed by the Germans right

And how many remain fascist today? There are traces of course, like in Austria for instance, but to me it looks like the people got a little fed up with the system, or at least with the outcome of it.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Lumpy

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Re: The defeat of fascism in WWII.
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2008, 04:26:28 AM »
List of fascist nations under and shortly after WWII:

Germany I know, that mustache guy
Italy I know, that cocky short guy
Japan Yadda, and hard core
Spain The other guy with mustache
Portugal Missed that one - Most do. Even I :) - Although less restrictive than the first three, the Estado Novo Party of Antnio de Oliveira Salazar was quasi-fascist. 1932-1968.
Austria Yes, because of the little Austrian - No. Austria became fascist in 1932, before Hitler came to power in Germany. The Heimwehr of Engelbert Dollfuss led Austria to be allied with Mussolini's Italy and then fall into the hands of Germany (Anschluss).
Greece - Joannis Metaxas' dictature...when was that? - 1936 to 1941.
Brazil Missed that one, but they dumped the system - Irrelevant. They were fascist at the time and were not defeated by the allies.
Chile now THERE you're talking.
Slovakia- Under Axis control in WW2? - The Slovak Populist Party was a quasi-fascist nationalist movement associated with the Roman Catholic Church. Founded by Father Andrej Hlinka, his successor Monsignor Jozef Tiso became the Nazis' quisling in a nominally independent Slovakia.
Vichy France Same
Romania Basically same - No. The violent Iron Guard took power when Ion Antonescu forced King Carol II to abdicate. The fascist regime ended after the Soviet invasion.
Croatia pro Axis
Hungary Same
Norway (under Quisling 43-45) Installed by the Germans right - No, more in spite of German wishes. Though the German invasion allowed him to take power after the legal government fled to England.

And how many remain fascist today? There are traces of course, like in Austria for instance, but to me it looks like the people got a little fed up with the system, or at least with the outcome of it. - Irrelevant. The question is how many were not defeated in WWII. Fascism wasn't defeated; it has slowly died on its own ... or rather is still slowly dying.



D-      ;)
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P