Author Topic: Corner Velocity Comparison  (Read 783 times)

Offline spit16nooby

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Corner Velocity Comparison
« on: April 18, 2008, 08:42:33 PM »
A few nights ago I was in my K-4 and flying around when I got jumped by a bunch of P-51s about 4k above me so I decided to turn as sharp as I can.  I knew that I was faster by a little and played to what I did better which was turn.  So we were flying in B&Z/E fighting planes T&Bing each other.  All was going well until a stray Hurri came in to the mix as I was turning to try to get the 2nd P-51 which was stupid enough to keep on turning.  Well the Hurri of course turned right into me and killed me.  After the fight I was thinking of how I could of avoided dying the way I did when I thought of turning at corner velocity.  That way I would of stayed fast enough to get away from the Hurri.  Then I thought well do I turn better at my corner velocity than the P-51.  So I went to dockongonzos and remembered that it was at slow speeds.  And thats why I'm here to ask if anyone knows any good places to compare corner velocitys of planes. 
                               

                         Please don't criticize my flying I've only been playing 5 months.  Unless you have something better I could of done in that situation since I haven't honed my E-fighting skills to a point where I can dogfight multiple bogies.

Offline Motherland

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Re: Corner Velocity Comparison
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2008, 01:44:51 AM »
You would have been better off going into a corkscrew-climb once the Hurricane came in. Neither he, nor the ponies would have been able to keep with you in a corkscrew climb. Infact, there are very few aircraft that can keep with the G14 or K4 in that maneuver. Once they stall, its just a matter of keeping your energy advantage and picking them off one by one, or extending.

I <3 t3h corkscrew climb. I've found myself using that maneuver a lot lately.

Offline Spatula

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Re: Corner Velocity Comparison
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2008, 04:37:09 AM »
Hi, IIRC, the 109K has a better sustained radius, rate, slower corner speed, better rate at corner, and tighter radius at corner than the P51D - but its not huge. The real benefit the 109K has in spades over the P51 is climb rate and acceleration. Get the mustang turning with ya to slow it down then get the fight heading upwards and watch the poor mustang wheeze.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Corner Velocity Comparison
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2008, 09:46:25 AM »
Hi, IIRC, the 109K has a better sustained radius, rate, slower corner speed, better rate at corner, and tighter radius at corner than the P51D - but its not huge. The real benefit the 109K has in spades over the P51 is climb rate and acceleration. Get the mustang turning with ya to slow it down then get the fight heading upwards and watch the poor mustang wheeze.

As a qualifier, if this fight occurs above 20k (especially at or above 25k), the 109K-4 finds itself without an advantage. Most players have not done much, if any high altitude fighting. When Combat Tour eventually debuts, they will have an opportunity to see why the P-51s did so well during the war.

It appears that the AH2 P-51s have some problems with excessive drag and too little lift when using flaps. Pyro has stated that he wants to review flap lift and drag properties to identify and correct some inconsistencies in the plane set. Hopefully, this will result in the P-51s being restored to their former performance.

The real beasties up above 25k are the P-47s, and the higher you go, the more dominating the Jugs become. Think about it; the P-47D-25 has 2,300 hp available at 30k, with the D-40 having 2,600 hp on tap.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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Re: Corner Velocity Comparison
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2008, 09:49:53 AM »
Go to this thread, http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,233819.0.html and download Badboy's Bootstrap Calculator.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline spit16nooby

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Re: Corner Velocity Comparison
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2008, 02:44:44 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions.  I have always wanted to do the corkscrew climb but it always seems better turners get in side my turn before they run out of E.  Any suggestions about what I'm doing wrong.

Offline Spatula

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Re: Corner Velocity Comparison
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2008, 06:33:00 PM »
What you're really trying to do is to tempt your opponent to put their nose up high in the air, AND, critically, pull lead over and above that in order to pull the requisite lead to get the guns solution. As long as you have more E (either by way of not loosing it as fast as your opponent due to a better sustained climb rate, OR, you simply start out with more) and your opponent is pulling lead (in lead pursuit), they will find it difficult to hit you and will run out of steam before you do and drop away. Remember lead pursuit costs more E than pure or lag pursuits. Its at or around that point you will need to be able to convert your E advantage to a positional advantage for the kill shot. If you've set it up right, a quick kick of rudder in the direction of your struggling victim and bit of aileron will kick your nose over and down at your victim for the shot opportunity.

Normally i like to 'profile' my opponent in this move. To me, this means, looking almost straight down the inside wing at my opponent. The inside wing 'points' at them. If they get too far around to your rear, then you know they may have a shot. Keep an eye on the profile of the opponent aircraft, if you can see a side profile, you have him home and hosed, if you can only see a front profile or a front-quarter profile you know they probably can take a shot or are not far from it, so it may be best to re-evaluate your options at that point. There's always constant evaluation required, both in the decision to enter the spiral climb (eg do you know you have the requisite E advantage and/or climb advantage to make it work), and in the actual execution of the move, and the follow-on end-game/bug-out.

Spiral climbs are risky at best. Even if you get it all right, and correctly estimated relative E stakes and factored in sustained climb rates, and know where the bug-out point will be for you, and you've set him up perfectly, and you manage to stay out of their guns, and they dont do something clever like a low yoyo to counter etc etc, there's still the chance of missing the follow on shot, in which case a second spiral attempt may be foolish, or someone else will just come along a cherry-pick you as you are slow at the top of your spiral. 1 20mm/30mm hit can really ruin your day too...

Some aircraft are better at these sorts of slow-speed climbing contests than others even if they have an inferior climb rate. Good example is the P38 with its counter-rotating props is extremely stable at slow speeds and doesn't have any nasty torque effects to snap it into a stall that single-prop aircraft do. Also remember to climb in the best direction for your aircraft - left for most aircraft. Tiffies, tempests, yaks, spit 14 actually turn better to the right, IIRC. That is also useful to know if your trying to spiral climb against a tiffie.
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Offline Gianlupo

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Re: Corner Velocity Comparison
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2008, 12:51:31 PM »
You would have been better off going into a corkscrew-climb once the Hurricane came in. Neither he, nor the ponies would have been able to keep with you in a corkscrew climb.

Quite right... just remember, though, that he was already committed in combat... according to when he saw the Hurricane (what distance I mean) and how fast it was, even a climbing spiral wouldn't have saved him.

The above it' not really for you, Bubi, but for Spit16nooby: remember, nooby, that there isn't such a thing like an always winning maneuver, it all depends on the actual conditions under which you perform it.

On the other hand, partially off topic and for Widewing: do you have data for the fighters that we can use for Badboy's spreadsheet, like the ones you posted for the 39Q? Do you plan on testing them and releasing such data, any time? I know I could try to gather them for myself, but, by now, you're basically one of the (if not THE) official AH test pilot, so why should I try and make a bad work if I can use your excellent one? ;)

EDIT: Do'h! Spatula basically already said what I wanted to point out :) Sorry, it was a too thick text-wall to read, especially while working! :D You're right about Tiffies/tempests, yanks and SPit 14.

Just one thing: if you're comfortable enough with the plane you're flying, you may want to do the climbing spiral in the worst-turning direction for your enemy's plane: if you find the average pilot, he'll stall way earlier than if you turn  in his best-direction turning. Just be sure you know how to fly your plane on the edge, because, 9 out of 10, you will be turning in your worst-turning direction, too.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 12:58:32 PM by Gianlupo »
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Corner Velocity Comparison
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2008, 09:13:32 PM »
You would have been better off going into a corkscrew-climb once the Hurricane came in. Neither he, nor the ponies would have been able to keep with you in a corkscrew climb. Infact, there are very few aircraft that can keep with the G14 or K4 in that maneuver. Once they stall, its just a matter of keeping your energy advantage and picking them off one by one, or extending.

I <3 t3h corkscrew climb. I've found myself using that maneuver a lot lately.

a question on this? it sounded like he was already pretty slow in the fight with the ponys. i think i'd asume the hurri came into the fight with a bit more E than any of the current fighters there had. would that still have worked with the hurri having a better E state? would that work in any other aircraft besides the 109s?

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Offline CAP1

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Re: Corner Velocity Comparison
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2008, 09:15:47 PM »
. When Combat Tour eventually debuts,It

My regards,

Widewing

when? :D

aawwwww, c'mon nowwww......you KNEW SOMEONE was gonna ask this :rofl
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Corner Velocity Comparison
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2008, 09:22:46 PM »
When the Hurricane came in, I would have rolled out, sucked in my flaps and threw on wep and probably dive. I'd leave the Ponies in the dust due to my superior acceleration and top speed (in the K4). Hopefully the hurri wouldn't have been above, at least by too much, so that the energy states were equal. Then, I would have dragged him till he was 1k or so out and then roped him.
So, yes, I've changed my mind from the spiral climb. I've flown the 190 a lot the last month and it's changed my flying style a bit.

Offline Widewing

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Re: Corner Velocity Comparison
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2008, 03:50:02 PM »
When the Hurricane came in, I would have rolled out, sucked in my flaps and threw on wep and probably dive. I'd leave the Ponies in the dust due to my superior acceleration and top speed (in the K4). Hopefully the hurri wouldn't have been above, at least by too much, so that the energy states were equal. Then, I would have dragged him till he was 1k or so out and then roped him.
So, yes, I've changed my mind from the spiral climb. I've flown the 190 a lot the last month and it's changed my flying style a bit.

Just a point that needs to be mentioned...

If you are flying a 109K-4 and dive to the deck with a P-51D in pursuit, the P-51 will run you down quickly (assumes they have similar speed once level).

The reason for this is the 109K-4 slows to max level speed much faster than the P-51D does. 10 minutes  of WEP will not help the 109 driver as the P-51D will retain speed above max level for a very long time, while the 109k quickly decelerates. The Mustang's extremely low drag is the reason. You will need a very large lead to avoid being chased down.

My regards,

Widewing

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline bongaroo

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Re: Corner Velocity Comparison
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2008, 09:22:49 AM »
Get away from that hurri at least.  I always hate having a fight going my way till a new plane shows up.

For instance drilling a runstang or 190 in the ki84 only to have a zeke or spixtween jump in.

The n00b combo's:

a spixtweeny and 190

a hurri2c and a 51

a zeke with a typhoon


Best bet if your alone facing these combo's is kill one of them quick, preferrably the turner (at least for me)



Makes for good practice on your SA too
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