Could this really happen? Loss of Vertical stab and rudder

[Simaril]

Had something unbelievable happen tonite in FSO...and wondering if it's aerodynamically possible in real life.

First the believable part. A squaddie and I were tasked with coming in from the west as bait in avengers to draw fighter cover lower and to get westward bases flashing. I harvested an impressive number of toolsheds, but unfortunately we both died to a hail of Nik cannon shells shortly thereafter. (I made a fight of it, but there were too many...evaded the first 3 attackers!)

Anyway, I then joined Daddog as his gunner. His group came in from higher alt and successfully dove in to hit the target. Afterwards, things got hot and we took some hits. In fact, we got pretty well smashed up before some covering fighters showed up to do their stuff.

Daddog's TBM lost both one flap, both airelons, the vertical stabilizer, and the rudder. However, we were able to keep on flying -- as long as the bomb bay doors were open. Apparently with the AH2 flight model, there was enough vertical stabilization from the two longitudinal bomb bay doors to allow the bird to stay in the air!

Daddog managed to bring the bird to the carrier group, crossing 3 sectors but having to work every step of the way. He was able to line up with the carrier, but the bird powerfully wanted to climb. The only way he could reduce alt was by dropping throttle to reduce lift. On final approach, the airspeed dropped low enough that we lost longitudinal control, we flipped over, and hit the drink.

So do you aeronautic guys think we should have even gotten that far? Could the plane have flown without vertical stabilizer and rudder?

[FTJR]

I wouldn't know really but you could think of the doors open as a Keel on a yacht. Good effort anyway.

[gaiacidemusic]

It not only can happen, but has.  Here's just one example.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/b52-strat/b52_50th/story3.htm

[lyric1]

Never mind thats it^^^. lol I remember a b52 on a test flight lost its rudder & stabilizer & did some thing weird to get it home I don't remember what? the entire thing was caught on film.

[Krusty]

Don't forget the b-52 is almost 100 feet long and very flat. The entire thing's a stabilizer! 

[Larry]

Iv watched as a squadie flew home land landed great with both V stabs and rudders gone in a 110. He said it was flying fine like it was just missing the rudder.

[gaiacidemusic]

The pilot used the throttles to control the yaw of the B52.  I vaguely remember another incident involving, I believe, a Boeing 707.  That plane also made a safe landing.

[Greebo]

IIRC there was an incident where a DC-10 lost all three hydraulic circuits and the pilot controlled yaw and pitch using the three throttles to bring the plane in to a crash landing.

[Easyscor]

I couldn't believe the logs when I saw you didn't go down. I put 7 20mm rounds into daddog, and when I saw all the pieces fly off, I was sure you weren't going anywhere. By then, all those angry F6s were all over me and one was already glued to my 6.

Nice job all.    No sheep bounty for me.

[Simaril]

I couldn't believe the logs when I saw you didn't go down. I put 7 20mm rounds into daddog, and when I saw all the pieces fly off, I was sure you weren't going anywhere. By then, all those angry F6s were all over me and one was already glued to my 6.

Nice job all.    No sheep bounty for me.

I'm a little surprised you didnt get kill credit...but you must have ended your sortie long, long before we crashed. It was about a 30 minute flight home, and had some iffy moments when we took some hits from a Vbase ack we couldnt steer enough around


<S> fun night even if I personally crashed and burned!

[Guppy35]

Hmmm, looks like his doors are open too

[Charge]

There was civilian airliner in US which lost all of its tail controls after tail engine blew up. IIRC there was a military flying instructor in the plane who finally managed to bring the plane to the airfield with just throttle controls. Only at the very last stages of landing they lost control and the plane crashed but most of the passengers survived the incident.

-C+

[Cthulhu]

I think some of you guys are confusing inherent yaw stability with yaw control. It's true that a plane can still be flown following loss of rudder control (due to loss of hydraulics, cables, etc.).  The UAL Flight 232 DC-10 that managed to make it to Sioux City after the #2 engine "grenaded" is a great example of superb flying after losing practically all his controls. The pilot, Capt. Haynes, had no rudder and, as he found out later,  no elevator control either. He also had no flaps (leading or trailing edge). The fact that he nearly landed the plane intact (the plane dipped a wing tip just as he set it down and subsequently came apart) is a testament to the pilot's skill.

Here's the pilot's description of what happened:
http://yarchive.net/air/airliners/dc10_sioux_city.html

But this plane still had all it's control surfaces intact. This meant that it was still statically stable and would fly, it just didn't respond to steering inputs. A plane losing both it's rudder and vertical stab is a whole nuther story. You'd obviously lose yaw control, but depending on the aircraft and whatever roll-yaw coupling it exibits, you might be able to fly it, but it would be extremely flakey and mushy. And as soon as you slowed down to land it might reach out and slap you real bad.

I'm a little surprised that leaving the weapons bay doors open on the TBM really helped at all. The bay is essentially the length of the torpedo. And since the torpedo would obviously be centered on the CG of the aircraft, I would expect the open doors to contribute equal amounts of instability (fwd of the CG) and stability (aft of the CG). In other words, IMO the effect of open doors would be a "wash".

Anyway, it obviously can be done. The B-52 pulled it off. But like Krusty said, the B-52 has a lot of side area aft of the CG, which contributed a lot to stability. And I believe they had their gear down, which in the B-52 probably helped as well.

Just my $.02

[Karnak]

There was civilian airliner in US which lost all of its tail controls after tail engine blew up. IIRC there was a military flying instructor in the plane who finally managed to bring the plane to the airfield with just throttle controls. Only at the very last stages of landing they lost control and the plane crashed but most of the passengers survived the incident.

-C+

Neg on the military instructor.  That was the flight's captain , a very experienced guy, who brought it back.  Later, in the hospital, he saw footage of the airliner tumbling on the landing and it looked so bad he thought it was another flight without survivors.

[Cthulhu]

Neg on the military instructor.  That was the flight's captain , a very experienced guy, who brought it back.  Later, in the hospital, he saw footage of the airliner tumbling on the landing and it looked so bad he thought it was another flight without survivors.

Karnak, Capt. Haynes was a Marine Corp. flight instructor prior to flying airliners. But I think it was the 25 years he had in big commercial's that let him pull this off. This guy is the Real Deal.