Author Topic: Iowa Class Battleships  (Read 3488 times)

Offline angelsandair

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2008, 02:00:49 AM »
Still siding with the multi-country task groups. So we get multi-country battleships.  :aok
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Offline SuperbKi11er

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2008, 07:13:31 AM »
If we get this ship we need a Musashi to counter it in the AvA.
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Offline Impakt

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2008, 12:49:57 PM »
Disagree with "they were still very important ships."  They were relics for which some role was sought. The loss of one sides Carriers in the Pacific would have been considered catastrophic---a battleship merely a sad loss of life. The fact that engagements took place does not mean they were central to the outcome. This was the point I made with regard to a "rich" versus "constrained" world. I guess you missed the point about integration into the game. What is AH? At its fundamental core? Is it evolving into an "all-around" WWII sim? Or is it still basically centered around the AC. If it is AC centered then I still stand by my points that  other non-US ships would be better in that they would integrate better with air warfare scenarios. The "keeping up with the CV's" is irrelevant on my proposed model of battlewagons as targets which was not addressed. Actually, an Iowa class ship would suit the game with its odd array of exotic beasts (posted on this elsewhere).

  Nice to hear the "Fast Carriers" mentioned, my father, Lt. Albert J. Moorman, jr. was an officer on DD-400 McCall from 1942-1945 and aside from detached patrols---the lion's share of that ships role was escorting the "Fast Carriers".


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Offline angelsandair

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2008, 01:00:12 PM »
we could do escort carriers. Smaller carriers with a smaller escort group. Could have them spawn only certain planes. (ex. American-F4F/FM-2)
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Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline TOMCAT21

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2008, 01:39:31 PM »
before anything else gets added, I think the major concern should be all the bugs  being worked out from all the updates we have gotten.  If, they were to be added, then the crowd of wanting field guns counted towards rank would have some ammunition to try to justify that...
RETIRED US Army/ Flying and dying since Tour 80/"We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded." - Capt. Richard Winters.  FSO 412th FNVG/MA- REGULATORS

Offline Yossarian

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2008, 02:23:53 PM »
I think it's battle fatigue mixed with a degree of paranoia that someone is trying to kill you either by attacking your plane (or flying it) or indirectly by sending you on ridiculously hazardous missions. You can see it in your face. I suggest plotting an emergency heading to Switzerland, if necessary.

(Image removed from quote.)

BB Joisy is a big `ol beautiful American battleship, ain't she? Guess we could go one of three ways on this:

We could follow MA uberlogic and remind others that the Yamato was bigger, therefore better.

We could jump on this bandwagon and call it not only a well thought-out suggestion but one that deserves a priority over other considerations.

We could politely suggest that as informative as the post/suggestion was (as well as timely and unique) that the game has greater needs presently.

I vote C, for now ... respectfully and non-threateningly.  :D

Arlo, would I be allowed/would it be ok with you if I put that picture as my avatar?

Anyway, whilst I would have to agree with what you said - the A-26 and Beaufighter remain at the joint-top of my personal wishlist - I would nevertheless love a BB, especially the USS Iowa.  Now if only it could fly.....

And on an entirely different subject, I think it's time I make a Yossarian offline mission.  :D
Afk for a year or so.  The name of a gun turret in game.  Falanx, huh? :banana:
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2008, 06:21:28 PM »
Disagree with "they were still very important ships."

Be my guest, but you are still wrong. Kindly support your assertion with something beyond rhetoric.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline angelsandair

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2008, 09:57:02 AM »
It would be smart not to argue with Widewing. He knows things........ :noid
Quote
Goto Google and type in "French military victories", then hit "I'm feeling lucky".
Here lie these men on this sun scoured atoll,
The wind for their watcher, the wave for their shroud,
Where palm and pandanus shall whisper forever,
A requiem fitting for heroes

Offline Impakt

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2008, 10:13:41 AM »
I did support my point. I love logic lessons---having an MA in Philosophy from Georgetown and an M.Phil in the History and Philosophy of Science from Cambridge, and having taught philosophy at the University level---I think I know the basic rules of argumentation. This is nothing more than a kind of "appeal to authority", and I'm NOT an authority so I will address your points. Perhaps my point was made too tacitly. I will repeat my points in more detail.
     
   (1) I hold that battleships were "not that important" (does not mean they were irrelevant) BECAUSE their loss in battle was not viewed as decisive or catastrophic. However, the loss of a CV was considered to be such.

   (2) I hold that they were antiquated weapons systems looking for some function in a new world dominated by the CV. Please read or re-read Dreadnought, and them some accounts of the naval war in WWI, and perhaps look at the efforts in the 1920s and 1930s to limit naval construction along the lines of the Kellogg-Briand efforts. What will you see? The "capital ships", i.e., Battleships were considered the decisive measure of a nations seapower. Naval war was envisioned as these ships slugging it out a la Jutland at 24,000 yards. This view was torpedoed at Pearl Harbor, Taranto, Norway, off Singapore, Truk, off Brest, etc., etc., . Did the Battleships provide important ground support fire---yes---ak fire? yes. Were they important? I would say they were relatively unimportant for the reasons stated.

  (3) Finally, I'm an epistemological holist like W.V.O. Quine. So, mu initial post was intended to be taken as a whole, and to sink or swim as a totality. Looks like it sunk.  So, my point about "superabundant" worlds cannot be discarded as one attacks my view of the relative importance of battleships. If HTC wants to build an AH world with few limitations---then fine---add the Iowa Class ships. If the ONLY consideration is keeping up with current CVs----well that is a good reason. It still doesn't address the playability issue of firepower and range. My point was this: To the extent that anyone is interested in historical scenarios that INTEGRATE AC with other weapons systems---then, IMO (a matter of rational belief not of scientific demonstration) there are other battleships that would better suit this role and better represent the systems that took a greater part in the conflict. It is VERY possible that no one cares about the historical aspect. This may be why there are so many "odd birds" in the game, i.e., firefly, Ta-152, Arado, 163, and some others. If "coolness" is the criterion and we just want something that can escort CVs to pound the crap out of a town in the Late War MA---I guess it is a good idea.
  (4) BTW---Widewing---your points were no less "rhetorical" ---the fact that a role was found for these ships as an Ak screen---does not mean they were "important". Of course, "important" is a mushy enough term that I suspect we will simply have to disagree, BUT not because of some shortfall on my part. Please note----the battleships were screening the  Carriers---a point that supports my point---that they were dinosaurs looking for a raison d'etre which could only be found in CV support.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 10:23:18 AM by Impakt »


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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2008, 11:36:20 AM »
Your post sank for a reason. And no one cares about your preferred style of argument because it does not matter in the least. Nor does your education in philosophy matter in the least. We're discussing the value of a type of warship here, not the value of a college degree you hold.

Sorry, your reasoning is not sound. For example, the Iowa class ships were in service into the eighties, and at their operating cost, they were not kept in service without reason.

Not only were the Iowa class battleships without peer in several areas, they were effective in several roles, including, but not limited to, screening for carriers and other ships of value, as well as shore bombardment (indispensable if you happen to be a guy tasked with storming a beach head), and the ability to defend against practically any surface attack (look into several naval battles, try googling "Taffy 3").
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2008, 01:23:39 PM »
snip


    

Blowhard feels the need to present his credentials before entering the fray - even if they are irrelevant to the discussion. For example, in a movie forum conflict he might attempt to settle the matter by saying, "As a Ph. D. candidate in particle physics I believe I can say with some authority that the 'Beavis and Butthead' movie represents the emergence of a new cultural paradigm." Huh?


Edit: ohh and I didn't see any Naval/military historian credentials sooo......
« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 01:26:18 PM by Bronk »
See Rule #4

Offline Widewing

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2008, 01:30:57 PM »
I did support my point. I love logic lessons---having an MA in Philosophy from Georgetown and an M.Phil in the History and Philosophy of Science from Cambridge, and having taught philosophy at the University level---I think I know the basic rules of argumentation. This is nothing more than a kind of "appeal to authority", and I'm NOT an authority so I will address your points. Perhaps my point was made too tacitly. I will repeat my points in more detail.

That's a fine education, but you obviously didn't learn historical methods or conduct research that includes identifying, evaluating, and presenting the primary and secondary sources of historical information, including historical analysis of said sources. Historical research is often mind-numbing, but essential to understand relevancy.

Let's review your statement.

You stated:
"There are some problems with battleships in game, in general. The range and potency of the guns (Volswagen sized projectiles heaved 24 nautical miles (almost a full game square). Historically, these ships in WWII functioned mainly as targets to be sunk by AC. Bismarck, Tirpitz, HMS Prince of Wales, Italian Fleet at Taranto, US Fleet at Pearl, Yamato, etc.. They did provide ground support fire and serve various ceremonial and political functions."

I asked that you support this with something beyond rhetoric, and you recite your unrelated education and proceed to reiterate your statement, embellishing the language, but without the depth of substance required to support you case. No citing of historical precedent. No historical examples, beyond an overview tainted with personal opinion.

See if you can determine why modern battleships were attached to fast carrier task forces. A simple study of US Naval theory will answer the question. If you limit it to just tripleA screening, you'll fall short.

To stimulate the reasoning and research process, allow me to pose a few questions.

Why did the US fleet retire at high speed after sinking every Japanese carrier at Midway?

Why did the standard ordnance load of modern battleships accompanying fast carriers include a much higher percentage of armor piercing rounds than that supplied to older battleships of support groups?

Why include any AP rounds in the basic loadout?

These three questions hint at the importance of battleships, despite the ascendancy of the aircraft carrier as the principle surface ship for the projection of naval power. These battleships were not attached to these task forces for shore bombardment or for "various ceremonial and political functions." They were there for one primary purpose (tripleA screening was secondary). What was that vital purpose?

Another hint.. Samar.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 01:42:48 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Impakt

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2008, 05:59:53 PM »
(1) My education was stated to be an invalid appeal to authority. I raised the issue because of his ad hominem attack that I offered mere rhetoric for my points. He clearly doesn't understand the points I am making so I am at a loss to explain further. I didn't enjoy his arrogant and condescending tone ---so I thought I would point out my familiarity with logic.

(2) Of course the Iowa class ships were in service in the 1980s. Did you think I was unaware of that? They did so because in a world where the US was ever more interested in projecting power in certain regions the Iowa class ships had ground support and cruise missile capability. That has little to do with Ace's high. Thanks for assuming I was unaware of that.

(3) Widewing's condescending tone, and remarks like "don't argue with him he knows things" prompted my remarks. The misunderstanding of my posts doesn't merit further response. What I believe and argue for is stated. If you believe it has been refuted so be it. I did not "present before entering fray" I presented after having already entered and then said they were irrelevant---try reading.

(4) Where were your primary and secondary sources? My main point (remember the "holistic point) was that FOR PURPOSES OF INCLUSION IN THE GAME I DO NOT FAVOR IOWA CLASS SHIPS AS A STARTING POINT. Our historical argument boils down to what "important" must mean. Use does not make importance. Nor the fact that Japanese battleships may have been perceived as a threat. McClellan thought he was outnumbered at Antietam---that did not make the threat a real one. You still haven'y answered the question of whether it would be good in the game to have 15-18" guns (depending on which BB) in the game with regard to range and firepower?? Maybe that kind of firepower wil be good, who knows. My point is that, for my playing experience, I would rather have BBs that could be used in a Tirpitz, Taranto, Pearl  etc scenario than have Iowa class ones in the Late war MA---shelling the crap out of everything. The use of CVs in game, the capture of bases, the maps, the LA-7 vs Spit 16 is already so grotesquely unrealistic and arcade like that it seems really amusing to bring the Iowa class fast carrier escort role into the picture.
   So since you like questions (1) what are the likely effects of 16" guns in the MA arcade with CV groups charging bases?  (2) Why would an Iowa class ship be better than say a Tirpitz which could be used on the Baltic map in a Norway Scenario? Or my proposal for non-firing BBs as elements of historical maps?
  Thanks I know about taffy 3---why do you guys attribute ignorance as part of your mode of argumentation?? Is the criterion for in game inclusion "peerlessness?" Or, some use somewhere?? It seems to me that older BBs would be more useful in game just as (in a limited world) a P-40E or Spitfire V would be more important in game than a Ta 152 or Me 262 ---peerless as these latter may be.

   To argue that WWII was the emergence of the age of the CV and the end of the era of the BB doesn't need sources to be cited. Arguing about the relative importance of weapons systems will boil down to what the word "important" means. I argue they were relatively unimportant to the outcome of the war. Widewing seems to believe that they were indispensible to the result (with no less rhetoric and no greater amount of sources cited). He fails to answer my main point with regard to the game of AH.


FOR MY INITIAL POST to be understood it must be taken as a whole and be VIEWED IN THE CONTEXT of stating an opinion on the worthiness of Iowa class ships for inclusion in this game ---on the assumption that we can't have everything at once if ever. Widewing simply took my 1st point and without citations or sources asserted the opposite (while demanding them from me--nice trick). He holds BBs were "important"; I hold that aside from ground support and surrender ceremonies, etc they were RELATIVELY unimportant---that doesn't mean they had no role or were without any importance. BUT the main point is not this historical argument. It is do we want 9 16" guns firing on towns and hangars from 24 miles out? Maybe we do maybe we don't. I, as a matter of personal preferance wou;d prefer to see other BBs first even if they are only targets at ports whose large guns could not fire.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 07:06:13 PM by Impakt »


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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2008, 07:05:25 PM »
Never has so little been said with so many words. Your familiarity with logic is not the point, but rather your lack of familiarity with naval warfare, and in particular the U.S. naval warfare doctrine of the era.

It's not that people don't understand your points it's that they don't find them valid or applicable.

For you to complain about condescension is amusing, similar to having Hitler complain about antisemitism.

Why in the Hell would anyone with such a supposedly superior education suggest that HTC waste valuable and scare resources on non firing battleships?

Of your suggested scenarios, only Pearl is likely, and in that case, a battleship is merely a target, and the type is not of any importance. Even the Tirpitz scenario uses the battleship as nothing more than a target.

The extra AAA capability of the Iowa class would be VERY useful considering how vulnerable the carriers are to the various suicidal bombers used so far outside their actual capabilities as to be absurd. Further, the excellent 16" naval rifles with superior fire control would be of great use during a beach assault, as well as making naval gun duels more interesting and entertaining.

Would other battleships of other classes also be useful? Of course. And I would not be opposed to them. However, given how rarely ships are added, my preference is for the Iowa class, because it belongs with with some of the other ships we have.

While the carrier emerged as the center of naval warfare, the battleship was not nearly so useless as you'd have people believe, especially not during World War II.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: Iowa Class Battleships
« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2008, 07:10:37 PM »