Author Topic: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists  (Read 18650 times)

Offline SkyRock

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #75 on: April 21, 2008, 03:05:18 PM »
Is adaptation the same as evolution?
evolution involves several aspects of change, including adaptation. Why don't you read up on it? :aok

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Offline SkyRock

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #76 on: April 21, 2008, 03:08:35 PM »
Thats what I was gonna say Donzo...

If I go outside and get hot but carry on by adaptation, did I just evolve?
Hey bro, I'm trying to not be insulting, but you and Donzo are sounding not very smart.  If you haven't studied science, then why try and post in this thread.  It would help if you knew just a little about what you are typing about.  I suggest taking Strip's advice and google some reading material. :salute

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Offline indy007

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2008, 03:10:09 PM »

Offline gwano

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #78 on: April 21, 2008, 03:11:46 PM »
Thats what I was gonna say Donzo...

If I go outside and get hot but carry on by adaptation, did I just evolve?

choosing to go outside and remain hot is a concious decision and not an evolutionary change. You have adapted not evolved.
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Offline Sabre

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #79 on: April 21, 2008, 03:47:48 PM »
The basic building blocks of single celled organisms have been created in test tubes. Electricity, water, and prehistoric atmosphere combined to produce complex ammnio acids. Can you really ignore the fact that once this happened in the right circumstances life was inevitable?

Strip

The Urey-Miller experiment of which you speak has been discredited for some time.  The couple of amino acids that resulted were far simpler than the basic building blocks of life, and used a precursor "chemical soup" that has since been determined to be completely unrepresentative of the condition on earth at the time life is posited to have begun.  That is why the OOL question is still completely open, and why virtually no hypothosis currently put forth has gained any traction or proved to be fruitful in guiding further research.  Each such hypothesis results in more questions than it answers, intractable questions that continue to stymy progress in OOL research.  Even if scientists managed to produce simple amino acids with the chemical compositions actually available in pre-biotic earth, this is still so far from true life that it is naive in the extreme to assume that would lead inevitably to DNA-based life.  Life cannot exist without the DNA code of life, yet DNA would not exist in the absense of the basic components of cellular life.  The simplest cell possible is so vastly complex and specified that the odds of it happening by chance exceed the probablistic resources of the entire universe since the moment of the Big-Bang.  That is a basic tenant of intelligent design theory, not (as those wishing to label it "creationism" would like you to believe) scripture.

Why, might I ask, is it scientific to look at forensic evidence, or rock formations, or EM signals from space and ask, "Is it natural or designed?", but un-scientific to look at the incredible complexity and specificity in a single living cell, or the fine-tuning of the cosmological constants, and ask, "Is this designed?"  Who the designer is may be a question not answerable by science at this time, but detecting the hallmarks of design itself certainly is not.

Anyway, the basic premise of this film is NOT whether Darwinian evolution is a correct and sufficient mechanism to explain all life on Earth, or whether ID can be persued scientifically.  You missed the entire point of the film if that's all you took away from it (it's certainly the only thing most negative reviewers chose to focus on, though).  The point of the film is to document a pattern of descrimination and suppression of any scientist who openly questions Darwinism's efficacy, or proposes that there is detectable and measureable evidence of design in nature.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 03:50:38 PM by Sabre »
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Offline SkyRock

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #80 on: April 21, 2008, 04:12:25 PM »
The Urey-Miller experiment of which you speak has been discredited for some time.  The couple of amino acids that resulted were far simpler than the basic building blocks of life, and used a precursor "chemical soup" that has since been determined to be completely unrepresentative of the condition on earth at the time life is posited to have begun.  That is why the OOL question is still completely open, and why virtually no hypothosis currently put forth has gained any traction or proved to be fruitful in guiding further research.  Each such hypothesis results in more questions than it answers, intractable questions that continue to stymy progress in OOL research.  Even if scientists managed to produce simple amino acids with the chemical compositions actually available in pre-biotic earth, this is still so far from true life that it is naive in the extreme to assume that would lead inevitably to DNA-based life.  Life cannot exist without the DNA code of life, yet DNA would not exist in the absense of the basic components of cellular life.  The simplest cell possible is so vastly complex and specified that the odds of it happening by chance exceed the probablistic resources of the entire universe since the moment of the Big-Bang.  That is a basic tenant of intelligent design theory, not (as those wishing to label it "creationism" would like you to believe) scripture.

Why, might I ask, is it scientific to look at forensic evidence, or rock formations, or EM signals from space and ask, "Is it natural or designed?", but un-scientific to look at the incredible complexity and specificity in a single living cell, or the fine-tuning of the cosmological constants, and ask, "Is this designed?"  Who the designer is may be a question not answerable by science at this time, but detecting the hallmarks of design itself certainly is not.

Anyway, the basic premise of this film is NOT whether Darwinian evolution is a correct and sufficient mechanism to explain all life on Earth, or whether ID can be persued scientifically.  You missed the entire point of the film if that's all you took away from it (it's certainly the only thing most negative reviewers chose to focus on, though).  The point of the film is to document a pattern of descrimination and suppression of any scientist who openly questions Darwinism's efficacy, or proposes that there is detectable and measureable evidence of design in nature.
no mention of protobionts?

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Offline Donzo

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #81 on: April 21, 2008, 04:14:23 PM »
Hey bro, I'm trying to not be insulting, but you and Donzo are sounding not very smart.  If you haven't studied science, then why try and post in this thread.  It would help if you knew just a little about what you are typing about.  I suggest taking Strip's advice and google some reading material. :salute


I'm not sounding very smart because I ask questions?
I suppose that you have never asked any questions...you must have just always knew everything or never questioned what you have read.

Offline Donzo

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #82 on: April 21, 2008, 04:17:50 PM »
That book.

If I remember correctly, the fossil record goes back to a point where, BAM! , everything came into existence (see "Cambrian explosion").

So how is the fossil record complete?  You must have read the book, explain please.

Offline SkyRock

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #83 on: April 21, 2008, 04:24:52 PM »

I'm not sounding very smart because I ask questions?
I suppose that you have never asked any questions...you must have just always knew everything or never questioned what you have read.
Donzo, I am all for you asking questions, but the de-evolve question did not sound very bright.  I am sorry, but that was my assessment of the question.  It actually sounded like you were being facetious.  I do apologize if I was wrong in my assessment. 

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Offline ChickenHawk

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #84 on: April 21, 2008, 04:30:21 PM »

PS.  It is a known fact that species evolve.  It is not a theory, it is a fact. 

Yes and no.  If you mean that a species makes minor changes according to its environment, then yes, that has been replicated throughout history as anyone who has bread a dog knows.  If you mean adding major changes like a dog growing gills or its hair turning to feathers then no, there has never been any scientific observation of a major DNA change of that nature.

You can modify the existing DNA in a species to your hearts content, but no scientist has ever added or subtracted DNA to create a different species.  A dog is a dog and will always remain so.  So far science has not come up with an explanation of how the blue print of a cell can be changed.  Macro evolution is a theory that has never been observed or proven.
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Offline SkyRock

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #85 on: April 21, 2008, 04:35:22 PM »
If I remember correctly, the fossil record goes back to a point where, BAM! , everything came into existence (see "Cambrian explosion").

So how is the fossil record complete?  You must have read the book, explain please.

fossils pre-date the cambrian.  Archean eon

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Offline gwano

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2008, 04:42:27 PM »

Anyway, the basic premise of this film is NOT whether Darwinian evolution is a correct and sufficient mechanism to explain all life on Earth, or whether ID can be persued scientifically.  You missed the entire point of the film if that's all you took away from it (it's certainly the only thing most negative reviewers chose to focus on, though).  The point of the film is to document a pattern of descrimination and suppression of any scientist who openly questions Darwinism's efficacy, or proposes that there is detectable and measureable evidence of design in nature.

In my opinion, the film was  conceived because the filmmaker felt that "creationism" is being pushed away from the mainstream educational system and he had a platform and the resources big enough to bring it back to the forefront, thereby giving away and injecting his personal feelings on the subject. I don't think he would produce a film like this without feeling that way. Therefore, it is sort of biased by nature. I personally feel that "Religion" has no place in the public school system, because it is primarily "word of mouth knowledge" but many private institutions are available for those wanting that type of education.

Lets be realistic here. Is the film critical of the evolutionary process.
I have not actually watched it yet and have only read articles on it, so I may not have the full grasp of the "PLOT" so to speak.
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Offline Sabre

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2008, 04:44:49 PM »
no mention of protobionts?

From the Internet Encyclopedia of Science:

"A term first used by Oparin to describe the early environmentally isolated, chemical-concentrating structures from which cells are presumed to have evolved." (emphasis added is mine)

Again, a hypothesis which has been looked at, but does not answer most of the questions regarding OOL.  I also didn't mention the "RNA World" hypothesis.
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Offline Sabre

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2008, 04:49:43 PM »
In my opinion, the film was  conceived because the filmmaker felt that "creationism" is being pushed away from the mainstream educational system and he had a platform and the resources big enough to bring it back to the forefront, thereby giving away and injecting his personal feelings on the subject. I don't think he would produce a film like this without feeling that way. Therefore, it is sort of biased by nature. I personally feel that "Religion" has no place in the public school system, because it is primarily "word of mouth knowledge" but many private institutions are available for those wanting that type of education.

Lets be realistic here. Is the film critical of the evolutionary process.
I have not actually watched it yet and have only read articles on it, so I may not have the full grasp of the "PLOT" so to speak.

The film has nothing to do with Creationism.  Again, the film is about discrimination against ID scientists.  Conflating creationism with ID is a common tactic of those doing the suppression.
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Offline Donzo

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2008, 04:54:33 PM »
fossils pre-date the cambrian.  Archean eon


Fossils of what?  Of the ancestors of modern day animals?  Or were they fossils of things that evolved into what we see today?

Is there a fossil record that "documents" the changes?