Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists

[lambo31]

Sorry Moot, I haven't been convinced any of the interviews have been skewed. I read Michael Sherner's article and he strikes me as a skeptic using ridicule as a means to convince people not to see the movie. I would rather judge for myself

Lambo

[lazs2]

myelo.. where did I say I believed in ghosts?   I said that I knew people who claimed to have seen them and I can't disprove it..  science can't either.

I agree that the beauty of science is that it can change 180 degrees and does.  I also feel that there are things that science can't explain and never will.. like god.

I just can't help but feel that those who have science as their god are the angry ones here. Look at all the angry responses..  "how dare someone question my god science!!"

Science is a useful tool for now.   It has given us a lot and it has also ruined the lives of many.   I simply believe that there are some things that are above our science.

Like I said..it is a useful tool it can be abused.. it can be used to scare people into unwise actions it has been used as such in the past and is being used as such right now by all sorts of alarmists.

I am not gonna call the people who see ghosts or bigfoot or aliens a liar.. for one thing.. It doesn't affect me in any case and.. mostly.. I can't prove it one way or the other.   I am not gonna call scientists a liar either unless they are clearly using science for an agenda and fudging.. well fudging the data and worse.. the amount they really know.   

And.. I am still looking for the evolved human set.. you know... from the apes to us.   the half monkey men if you will.. not saying it is impossible..  just like I didn't say the hundreds of other BS things they had to eventually recant were impossible.. I am just saying that.. at least with the ghost believers.. they have seen something.. the scientists are making it up out of nothing.   just a guess...

Like I said tho.. it doesn't hurt me any so go ahead and believe it. 

I just can't see why any talk of god gets so many people angry on the side that claims to not believe in a god.   Why not just say "oh.. that's nice" and be done with it?    Why not say at the schools that we.. the scientists.. have no frigging clue as to how the universe or we were created but that they have some theories.. then say.. others believe that science can never explain it because it is the work of god.

lazs

[kamilyun]

I just can't see why any talk of god gets so many people angry on the side that claims to not believe in a god.   Why not just say "oh.. that's nice" and be done with it?    Why not say at the schools that we.. the scientists.. have no frigging clue as to how the universe or we were created but that they have some theories.. then say.. others believe that science can never explain it because it is the work of god.

lazs

If it's physics class and you're talking about the creation of the universe, okay.  Doesn't really bother me one way or the other.

If you start saying scientists have some theories about how bacteria work, but really don't get it, it's not okay.  That's why evolution is such a bugger.  It deals with life.  Biology, medicine, chemistry also deal with life.  Religion deals with life.

I don't want people at Genetech praying that they find the next cancer therapy, same way I don't want the doctor praying over me when looking for tumors.  That would bother me.  And it's not a huge jump or comparing apples and oranges.  Either you accept that our machinery makes mistakes every once in a while, or you don't. 

Discussions like these quickly devolve (pun intended) into both sides demonstrating their entrenched beliefs, with no one changing their minds.  They're pretty much pointless, and honestly I don't care who believes what, so long as it doesn't make it into the classroom or affect public policy.  Which I guess means that I do have to care at some level. 

There's no anger in my words and I certainly recognize the delicateness of life's situations and belief in the meaning of life.  I hope I never have to deal with a situation where I find myself looking at my kid in a hospital bed dying of some rare genetic disease.

"Daddy, why am I dying?" or "Daddy, what will happen to me after this?"

are questions I hope I never have to answer.  However someone answers those questions and whatever comfort they find in them is entirely their own business.  I dare not go there.

[SkyRock]

Lazs, I don't get angry with the thought of a God, I actually have not made up my mind about it yet.  I tend to lean towards there being "something"out their that knows more than I do about what all this "universe" is about.  I do however get frustrated with the intentions of most religous people.  The blatant holier than thou attitudes that is common amoung the religions.  The fighting and attempts to dominate all others by changing the laws to fit their religion.  The countless wars over religious differences.

I'll give you an example of something that infuriated me recently.  I have a 6 yo and a 10 yo that I have full custody of and the ex took me back to court to try and get custody back.  Although for 10 years me and the ex believed the same about religion, we would go to church on occasions and talk about how we both agreed how the children should be raised to have options to make up their own mind without our shoving our beliefs down their throats.  We never believed every word of the bible should be taken literally.  Then, on the court day, she claims that I am an atheist and that she has been a member of the local baptist church now for 3 months.  her lawyer tore into me about what I tell the children about the bible.  I explained that I thought I would leave it open for them to decide when the time comes.  He comes back with the question, "So you tell them that the bible isn't true?"  Now, you must understand this is a court in New Albany, Mississippi, and the judge is the deacon of the largest church in corinth, Mississippi.  He looks at me with this look, hard to explain other than a look of "sin".  What infuriates me about this, is the hypocracy involved not only in my situation, but many christians who do this to other people.  Her lawyer was a friend of mine in college, and I walked away from countless conversations he started with us back in the day about "the bad word for black people", "spics", and "chinks" and he's dragging me through the mud over how I raise my children?  My ex is a compulsive liar, a thief, and a drug addict(crystal meth her drug of choice after hydrocodene), and she can go to church for 3 months and get brownie points on her parenting because the judge is a christian?  What is wrong with this picture?

Overall, I believe that one's faith is a private matter between oneself and God.  It should not be brought into government, schools, courts, or any other public power.  Faith in knowing the origins of the universe is unprovable, just as the scientific theories of the origins of the universe are unprovable(we simply cannot go back in time and observe what really happened), with one big difference.......religions claim to already "know" the truth based on faith, and science is an objective method to actually find the real "truth" based on facts.

  I will agree that with all studies, theories should be subjected to the highest scrutiny before being accepted as a truth, and in the case of evolution, it has passed those criteria.

[iWalrus]

Heres a way to look at the funny math associated with the "complexity" argument:

What are the chances of you talking to me on line. Now intuitively we know that they are pretty good since we are talking. But if I were to calculate the odds of you talking to someone named midnight target they would be something like 1 in 64,509,974,703,297,150,976

So it is impossible for us to be talking.

You're going to have to explain this logic a little better. 

Are you saying that there is a chance that the person I am responding to right now is not you...the person that chose midnight Target as their ID on this message board?  Short of the software running this board not working as intended, the chance that I am responding to someone named midnight Target on this board is 100%.  So I do not understand your logic with the example you gave.

Here you go, Donzo. I think you can think this through.

What were the odds, in 1922, of you responding to a Midnight Target on these forums? What about in 11,238 B.C.? Pretty long odds I'd say. One Creationist argument that I've heard is that 2 billion years before life existed on this planet, the odds of life spontaneously forming were insurmountable, therefore it could not have happened. They say there must have been a divine snot-rocket blown into the primordial soup.

He is saying that just because the odds of something are astronomical, it is not eliminated from possibility.

Just what are your views on evolution and creation, Donzo? So far, I've seen you point out to me that I didn't give a rebuttal for something I did not intend to refute, question people's logic as not clear enough for you, and continue to ask for more in depth explanations. I think we've laid our cards on the table. What do you have to show? Oh, and if you could, please tell me what I left out.

[myelo]

myelo.. where did I say I believed in ghosts?   I said that I knew people who claimed to have seen them and I can't disprove it..  science can't either.

Sorry, maybe you said you believe in God. I sometimes get my mythical supernatural beings confused.

[ChickenHawk]

Lazs, I don't get angry with the thought of a God, I actually have not made up my mind about it yet.  I tend to lean towards there being "something"out their that knows more than I do about what all this "universe" is about.  I do however get frustrated with the intentions of most religous people.  The blatant holier than thou attitudes that is common amoung the religions.  The fighting and attempts to dominate all others by changing the laws to fit their religion.  The countless wars over religious differences.

I'll give you an example of something that infuriated me recently.  I have a 6 yo and a 10 yo that I have full custody of and the ex took me back to court to try and get custody back.  Although for 10 years me and the ex believed the same about religion, we would go to church on occasions and talk about how we both agreed how the children should be raised to have options to make up their own mind without our shoving our beliefs down their throats.  We never believed every word of the bible should be taken literally.  Then, on the court day, she claims that I am an atheist and that she has been a member of the local baptist church now for 3 months.  her lawyer tore into me about what I tell the children about the bible.  I explained that I thought I would leave it open for them to decide when the time comes.  He comes back with the question, "So you tell them that the bible isn't true?"  Now, you must understand this is a court in New Albany, Mississippi, and the judge is the deacon of the largest church in corinth, Mississippi.  He looks at me with this look, hard to explain other than a look of "sin".  What infuriates me about this, is the hypocracy involved not only in my situation, but many christians who do this to other people.  Her lawyer was a friend of mine in college, and I walked away from countless conversations he started with us back in the day about "the bad word for black people", "spics", and "chinks" and he's dragging me through the mud over how I raise my children?  My ex is a compulsive liar, a thief, and a drug addict(crystal meth her drug of choice after hydrocodene), and she can go to church for 3 months and get brownie points on her parenting because the judge is a christian?  What is wrong with this picture?

Overall, I believe that one's faith is a private matter between oneself and God.  It should not be brought into government, schools, courts, or any other public power.  Faith in knowing the origins of the universe is unprovable, just as the scientific theories of the origins of the universe are unprovable(we simply cannot go back in time and observe what really happened), with one big difference.......religions claim to already "know" the truth based on faith, and science is an objective method to actually find the real "truth" based on facts.

  I will agree that with all studies, theories should be subjected to the highest scrutiny before being accepted as a truth, and in the case of evolution, it has passed those criteria.

While we may disagree on the limits of natural biology and the origin of the universe, I think we can agree that there is no small shortage of hypocrites professing righteousness by religious association while paying scant attention to the tenants of their professed faith.  If that judge issues a verdict based on his own personal feelings rather than the evidence, then he is also a hypocrite.

I wish you the best of luck in your custody battle with your ex.

[iWalrus]

Science is a useful tool for now.   It has given us a lot and it has also ruined the lives of many.   I simply believe that there are some things that are above our science.

Let's compare the death toll of science to the death toll of religion. Lowest score wins. That would be a fun game. I'll go first - The Crusades.  The Spanish Inquisition. Score so far: Science- 0, Religion 2. Your turn.

Like I said..it is a useful tool it can be abused.. it can be used to scare people into unwise actions it has been used as such in the past and is being used as such right now by all sorts of alarmists.

I just drove past a Planned Parenthood on my way home. There was a big protest there in front of the building. I saw several signs that said, "Abortions lead to Hell". It was today in Yakima, WA. A news crew was there. Check it out. That kind of seems like using religion to scare people into the, what some may think, unwise decision of not having an abortion. I heard you mention a illegitimate birthrate of 68% among one of the poorest demographics. I also heard you say there may be a link between that and that same demographic's over-representation in the prison system. I think you may be right. I think that being born into a family  that can't take care of you will lead many to a life of crime. I think they should encourage abortion in order to prevent the future sins of these fetuses.

I just can't see why any talk of god gets so many people angry on the side that claims to not believe in a god.   Why not just say "oh.. that's nice" and be done with it?    Why not say at the schools that we.. the scientists.. have no frigging clue as to how the universe or we were created but that they have some theories.. then say.. others believe that science can never explain it because it is the work of god.

lazs

It is implicit and inherent in all scientific theories that they are not the irrefutable truth. We learn that on day one of science class. It is just easier to say, "When this branch of mammals evolved into primates..." rather than, "When this branch of mammals evolved into primates, if the theory of evolution is true, and if radiocarbon dating is accurate, and if I'm not really in a loony bin right now imagining all of this,....".

Just because I say that gravity is the force keeping us on earth does not mean that I am summarily excluding the possibility that one day we will discover that it is actually a new force called "the glue of the gods." It is just easier than saying, "Gravity is the force keeping us on the earth, to the best of our knowledge." Qualifying everything we say with "as far as we know" would get old. It is just assumed when talking about scientific theories.

Why don't they talk about people believing the earth was created by god in science class? Because that idea was not arrived at by way of the scientific method. If they start offering a religion class in public schools, then that would be the place to discuss such ideas. If that class is started in the U.S. it's going to have to contain teachings not only of the Christian view of Creation, but that of Hindus, Buddhists, Native Americans, Australian Aborigines, and Islam,etc. How would you feel about that? A public school teacher telling our impressionable youth about Allah?  I bet you wouldn't like that at all, would you?

[midnight Target]

You're going to have to explain this logic a little better. 

Are you saying that there is a chance that the person I am responding to right now is not you...the person that chose midnight Target as their ID on this message board?  Short of the software running this board not working as intended, the chance that I am responding to someone named midnight Target on this board is 100%.  So I do not understand your logic with the example you gave.

My online name has 14 letters. Each of those letters could be 1 of 26 possible choices. 26^14 is a VERY large number. This is something like the silly math used to calculate the "impossible" odds of evolution.

 

[Holden McGroin]

I am amazed that some people would not understand that if lions keep eating the slow gazelles, that gazelles would tend to get faster.

As gazelles get faster, lions would have to develop new ways to catch faster gazelles.

If there is an isolated herd of gazelles that have to outrun cheetahs, after several generations, that herd would be much faster than the herd outrunning lions.

[vorticon]

Let's compare the death toll of science to the death toll of religion. Lowest score wins. That would be a fun game. I'll go first - The Crusades.  The Spanish Inquisition. Score so far: Science- 0, Religion 2. Your turn.

science...
every single person and animal killed with a weapon or in a accident involving any product of science.

its a silly argument, but then so is thinking theres isnt/wasnt a more important political motivation for 99% of anything that could be blamed on religion. and  the small number whack jobs who do kill people because the religion demands it would found another reason to kill people.

[Holden McGroin]

science...
every single person and animal killed with a weapon or in a accident involving any product of science.

Science is the method by which our darker urges do evil just as it is the method our higher motives use to do good.

i.e. Guns don't kill people... people kill people.

[moot]

Lazs I don't mean to answer for myelo, but science was never about proving or disproving supernatural things like ghosts or god.  If you see a 'scientist' or anyone pretending that they've got some scientific proof or disproof of those things, what you have in front of you is a liar.. Science isn't good or bad, it's not an ethical thing.  It's a method for learning, and what people use it to learn isn't science's doing, any more than it's guns' doing when one person shoots another with a gun.

The missing evolutionary link between men and apes, if there is one, will eventualy be found.  It's a bit like a tide rising through dry land: if the land is uneven, there might be peaks that are only submerged some time after the water rose above everything else.  Eventualy the 'missing link' will be surrounded by data, and it'll only be a matter of narrowing things down to some irreducible possibility, or to some evidence that things just don't add up.  At that point it would be scientific to start with a fresh map and raise the tide of data over unknown territory again.

Fudging the data isn't science.. The problem isn't with science, it's with people and their agendas, like you say.  Teaching that something was made by god is no good scientificaly because it provides no understanding.  It gives nowhere rational to go from there.

[lazs2]

moot.. thanks but.. as you see.. now we have the same angry people telling me in angry terms that they are not angry and giving examples of why god really makes em angry.   Myelo does not agree with you at all..  all things not explained by science are laughable to him.. ghosts.. god.. all the same to him.

I have asked my god for strength when I had none and I got it.   I have felt his presence.. that or I have a tumor... but.. I see god all around me.  I honestly feel sorry for those who do not.   I believe in a creator..  I do not believe in a literal interpretation of the bible or any religion.   I believe that we are not meant to understand god.    I believe in a creator.. that does not leave out evolution.   Not all of it.   

I do have a hard time with man from monkey.. just like I had a hard time with oil from the flintstones pet dino... the reason we haven't found the missing link is because the theory is bad.   The rest of gods creatures are not gonna evolve into humans no matter what or how long.

The other thing is that skyrock, walrus and others are getting religion mixed up with a belief in god..  belief in god (or none) is indeed a religion but you do not need to belong to an organized religion with set piece beliefs and taboos to believe in god.   

I also notice that those who get the angriest.. when you scratch the surface.. either are angry because they feel god let them down or.. some person from some religion or another annoys them or interferes in their life.

I can think of no religion that I would want to run my life or the country.   I can think of nothing but good tho coming from a belief in our creator.   The evil comes when people try to claim special insight into what god wants for others.

lazs

[lazs2]

and moot.. just because something is not "good scientifically" is no reason to not "teach" it.. I did not say that you had to say that there is a god..  I would only want that the facts of the matter be brought out.

That is the problem with the religion of science.  There is where you and I diverge.. you seem to be claiming that if science can't understand it then it can't be mentioned.   

On creation.. one could and should say that evolution can't prove most things and is a theory.. That many people believe in a divine theory of creation that has not been proven or disproven.. that the creation of the universe is not understood and that there of many who believe in a god who created it and other who believe... well..  pick a year and a theory.

I think science and the supernatural can exist together.  I think it is obvious to anyone who ever went outdoors or needed strength in a time of crisis.

lazs