Author Topic: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists  (Read 18872 times)

Offline moot

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #195 on: April 23, 2008, 12:21:32 PM »
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Offline VERTEX

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #196 on: April 23, 2008, 12:23:33 PM »
Was a big fan of Ben Stein's money game show. With this new information, I can only conclude that I was the fan of an idiot, and I am no longer a fan.

Flexibility of thinking, the ability to change ones view in light of new evidence is the hallmark of a scientific mind. Even if you dont like where the evidence takes you, you go there anyway.

Sorry Ben Stein, but I cant be the fan of an idiot, I have had to change my mind in light of new evidence, despite my disapointment.




Offline AKIron

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #197 on: April 23, 2008, 12:29:11 PM »
Life didn't come from "nothing". Given that the building blocks of life exists, and given near infinite time, the "accidental" self-creation of life is inevitable.

"Life" is a human definition which may prove to be too limited in scope. Where did you get this "near infinite time" you speak of?
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #198 on: April 23, 2008, 12:44:04 PM »
Now, to stick my nose into a silly debate where it doesn't belong...

A lot of the evolution deniers seem to be stuck on the 17th century principle of sufficient reason: "everything must have a cause or reason sufficient to explain it."

Hume's skepticism destroyed the principle of sufficient reason in the 18th century, and since then it's become very hard for a serious student of philosophy to believe in its objective validity.  Yes, let's be clear on that, all of this evolution denial is bad philosophy... not science.
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Offline lambo31

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #199 on: April 23, 2008, 01:07:06 PM »
I posted this article a couple of years ago on the bbs after reading it. No, I'm not the author. With the way some people here are attacking others, calling them idiots, just because their beliefs differ I think it'll fit.

Article:

Evidence
Creationists and evolutionists, Christians and non-Christians all have the same evidence—the same facts. Think about it: we all have the same earth, the same fossil layers, the same animals and plants, the same stars—the facts are all the same.

The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions. These are things that are assumed to be true, without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms). This becomes especially relevant when dealing with past events.

Past and present
We all exist in the present—and the facts all exist in the present. When one is trying to understand how the evidence came about (Where did the animals come from? How did the fossil layers form? etc.), what we are actually trying to do is to connect the past to the present.

However, if we weren’t there in the past to observe events, how can we know what happened so we can explain the present? It would be great to have a time machine so we could know for sure about past events.

Christians of course claim they do, in a sense, have a ‘time machine’. They have a book called the Bible which claims to be the Word of God who has always been there, and has revealed to us the major events of the past about which we need to know.

On the basis of these events (Creation, Fall, Flood, Babel, etc.), we have a set of presuppositions to build a way of thinking which enables us to interpret the evidence of the present.

Evolutionists have certain beliefs about the past/present that they presuppose, e.g. no God (or at least none who performed acts of special creation), so they build a different way of thinking to interpret the evidence of the present.

Thus, when Christians and non-Christians argue about the evidence, in reality they are arguing about their interpretations based on their presuppositions.

That’s why the argument often turns into something like:

‘Can’t you see what I’m talking about?’

‘No, I can’t. Don’t you see how wrong you are?’

‘No, I’m not wrong. It’s obvious that I’m right.’

‘No, it’s not obvious.’ And so on.

These two people are arguing about the same evidence, but they are looking at the evidence through different glasses.

It’s not until these two people recognize the argument is really about the presuppositions they have to start with, that they will begin to deal with the foundational reasons for their different beliefs. A person will not interpret the evidence differently until they put on a different set of glasses—which means to change one’s presuppositions.

I’ve found that a Christian who understands these things can actually put on the evolutionist’s glasses (without accepting the presuppositions as true) and understand how they look at evidence. However, for a number of reasons, including spiritual ones, a non-Christian usually can’t put on the Christian’s glasses—unless they recognize the presuppositional nature of the battle and are thus beginning to question their own presuppositions.

It is of course sometimes possible that just by presenting ‘evidence’, you can convince a person that a particular scientific argument for creation makes sense ‘on the facts’. But usually, if that person then hears a different interpretation of the same evidence that seems better than yours, that person will swing away from your argument, thinking they have found ‘stronger facts’.

However, if you had helped the person to understand this issue of presuppositions, then they will be better able to recognize this for what it is—a different interpretation based on differing presuppositions—i.e. starting beliefs.

Full article can be found here  http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp

Lambo
« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 01:17:05 PM by lambo31 »
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #200 on: April 23, 2008, 01:28:51 PM »
"Life" is a human definition which may prove to be too limited in scope. Where did you get this "near infinite time" you speak of?

Do you know when or if the universe will end?
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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #201 on: April 23, 2008, 01:39:13 PM »
Yes... 2 weeks!

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #202 on: April 23, 2008, 01:47:35 PM »
Doh!
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline moot

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #203 on: April 23, 2008, 01:56:45 PM »
These two people are arguing about the same evidence, but they are looking at the evidence through different glasses.
A book supposed to be written by God is no evidence.

People aren't calling others idiots for their different beliefs, they're doing it (whether it's excessive or not) because they're adding 2 and 2 and getting something else than 4.  You saying you find Shermer's article as ridiculing Stein's movie is at least fishy.  There's no ad hominem, only evidence that Stein screwed with the interview material and did used some pretty corny devices to appeal to the audience's emotions (and probably faith - my guess) rather than reason.

There's some paradigm paralysis and it's not Shermer's.
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Offline lazs2

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #204 on: April 23, 2008, 02:13:54 PM »
skyrock.. when you "get the picture" from incomplete data.. you are not being "smart" you are taking a shot in the dark.. you often end up with a picture that says man will warm the globe enough to have a rise in the sea of 30' by 2020 or that all petroleum came from fred flintstones pets.

But..  at least in my understanding of my god.. after all this.. I don't see how science and god..or even the supernatural can't just co-exist.  science should be able to say... "just because we can't measure it does not make it impossible"   

Those who believe in a creator should be able to say that just because we believe in god is no reason to say that evolution can't exist to a great extent.

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Offline lambo31

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #205 on: April 23, 2008, 02:25:27 PM »
A book supposed to be written by God is no evidence.

People aren't calling others idiots for their different beliefs, they're doing it (whether it's excessive or not) because they're adding 2 and 2 and getting something else than 4.  You saying you find Shermer's article as ridiculing Stein's movie is at least fishy.  There's no ad hominem, only evidence that Stein screwed with the interview material and did used some pretty corny devices to appeal to the audience's emotions (and probably faith - my guess) rather than reason.

There's some paradigm paralysis and it's not Shermer's.

 I was simply trying to show why people might have differing views of how the Earth was created. I believe the Bible, yes. And if a person doesn't believe in God then ofcourse the Bible wouldn't make sense to that person. Infact, the Bible even say's this ‘But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned’ (1 Corinthians 2:14).
 The thing about Shermer is I wasn't there to hear the conversation he had with Stein. How do I know he's telling every thing? or what he's telling is the truth? There's always 2 sides to a story. Rather than take his word on faith I'll watch the movie and decide for myself. And other than hearing Stein screwed with the film I haven't seen the proof. If I did even then it would just change my view of Stein.

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Offline AKIron

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #206 on: April 23, 2008, 02:49:51 PM »
Do you know when or if the universe will end?

Of course, when time ceases. Do I know how long it will be 'til that occurs? Certainly not, nor do I know how long since time began. I do believe that time and space as we understand it is not all that there is.
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Offline Samiam

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #207 on: April 23, 2008, 03:22:20 PM »

I will also repeat that any science that will not recognize the possibility of the supernatural is no science at all.   What do you say to a person who has seen ghosts for instance?   I don't know if they have or not.  I have not..and.. I sure as hell don't believe someone who has not who says that his science says they do not exist.


As usual, the majority of this debate revolves around a fundamental misunderstanding about what science is and isn't. This is a non-sequitor statement, lazs, because BY DEFINITION science is concerned with the natural world. As soon as you include the supernatural, it's not science anymore.

Why?

All you IDers pay close attention (as if there's any hope of comprehension on this point):

The scientific method is about being able to make and test predictions where the ultimate test is direct observation or measurement. Introducing the supernatural eliminates the ability to make direct observation and measurement and therefore has no standing in science. If you do have the ability to make predictions and test them by observation or measurement then, again by definition, it's not supernatural any more - rather it's quite natural.

There are many mysteries in our universe, yet unexplained by science. You can claim that they are supernatural. But this is only true up to the point where we figure out how to make accurate predictions about them that hold up to testing and measurement. Then it's no longer a mystery and it cannot be called supernatural.

Religion is a non-starter here, because not only is it filled with supernatural explanations, but it declares itself unexplainable in any other way than supernatural. I'm not making a value statement about religion here, just that any notion that ID is in any way shape or form science is ridiculous on the face of it because it abolishes the very practice of predicting, testing and measuring. Note that I haven't said that it's not true, it's just not science. ID says "magic happened, it isn't understandable in any way other than a magical force, just be happy". Fundamentally, that is NOT SCIENCE.

On a further note:

I think it's been said a hundred times, but IDers - and many others - never seem to actually understand this point:

A scientific theory IS NOT a conjecture. A theory as defined by science is a formal description of some system or phenomena against which predictions can be made and outcomes can be measured.

A weak scientific theory is one where, based on the theory, few predictions that can be made have been tested or where some predictions turn out not to be true. When a prediction turns out not to be true, it may involve "tuning" the theory if it is complex. It doesn't necessarily mean the whole theory is moot.

A strong theory is one where many, many predictions have been made where outcomes have supported the predictions. The more, the stronger. Science is then built by gaining confidence in a theory's ability to support more and more predictions to the point where the theory is essentially a set of accepted truths.

Evolution is a strong theory. Perhaps the strongest of all scientific theories. It is supported by an insurmountable amount of evidence  - an IDer saying "there's no fossil/DNA evidence" does not negate the fact that there is so much evidence only complete ignorance excuses such statements - and the lifestyles you all lead today is a direct result of it being this way. The antibiotics you take when you are ill, the flu vaccine you take so you don't get ill, the dog you walk, the food you eat, the lawn you mow, the fertilizer you use to kill the weeds in the lawn you mow, are all evidence that our understanding of the way life works, adapts and evolves is accurate and no "magic happens" explanation is needed.

Offline AKIron

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #208 on: April 23, 2008, 03:27:43 PM »
As usual, the majority of this debate revolves around a fundamental misunderstanding about what science is and isn't. This is a non-sequitor statement, lazs, because BY DEFINITION science is concerned with the natural world. As soon as you include the supernatural, it's not science anymore.

Why?

All you IDers pay close attention (as if there's any hope of comprehension on this point):

The scientific method is about being able to make and test predictions where the ultimate test is direct observation or measurement. Introducing the supernatural eliminates the ability to make direct observation and measurement and therefore has no standing in science. If you do have the ability to make predictions and test them by observation or measurement then, again by definition, it's not supernatural any more - rather it's quite natural.

There are many mysteries in our universe, yet unexplained by science. You can claim that they are supernatural. But this is only true up to the point where we figure out how to make accurate predictions about them that hold up to testing and measurement. Then it's no longer a mystery and it cannot be called supernatural.

Religion is a non-starter here, because not only is it filled with supernatural explanations, but it declares itself unexplainable in any other way than supernatural. I'm not making a value statement about religion here, just that any notion that ID is in any way shape or form science is ridiculous on the face of it because it abolishes the very practice of predicting, testing and measuring. Note that I haven't said that it's not true, it's just not science. ID says "magic happened, it isn't understandable in any way other than a magical force, just be happy". Fundamentally, that is NOT SCIENCE.

On a further note:

I think it's been said a hundred times, but IDers - and many others - never seem to actually understand this point:

A scientific theory IS NOT a conjecture. A theory as defined by science is a formal description of some system or phenomena against which predictions can be made and outcomes can be measured.

A weak scientific theory is one where, based on the theory, few predictions that can be made have been tested or where some predictions turn out not to be true. When a prediction turns out not to be true, it may involve "tuning" the theory if it is complex. It doesn't necessarily mean the whole theory is moot.

A strong theory is one where many, many predictions have been made where outcomes have supported the predictions. The more, the stronger. Science is then built by gaining confidence in a theory's ability to support more and more predictions to the point where the theory is essentially a set of accepted truths.

Evolution is a strong theory. Perhaps the strongest of all scientific theories. It is supported by an insurmountable amount of evidence  - an IDer saying "there's no fossil/DNA evidence" does not negate the fact that there is so much evidence only complete ignorance excuses such statements - and the lifestyles you all lead today is a direct result of it being this way. The antibiotics you take when you are ill, the flu vaccine you take so you don't get ill, the dog you walk, the food you eat, the lawn you mow, the fertilizer you use to kill the weeds in the lawn you mow, are all evidence that our understanding of the way life works, adapts and evolves is accurate and no "magic happens" explanation is needed.


The "supernatural" is by definition greater than or beyond the natural. I will argue that this is only because of our inability to perceive or understand it. That does not mean it is disconnected or otherwise separate from our "natural" realm. If science were limited to our current understanding of the natural realm the world would still be flat. 
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Offline iWalrus

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Re: Ben Stein vs. Sputtering Atheists
« Reply #209 on: April 23, 2008, 03:51:43 PM »
skyrock.. when you "get the picture" from incomplete data.. you are not being "smart" you are taking a shot in the dark.. you often end up with a picture that says man will warm the globe enough to have a rise in the sea of 30' by 2020 or that all petroleum came from fred flintstones pets.

lazs

I'd hate to take this thing off on another tangent, but I have to ask this quick question. Do you think that crude oil is being formed at a rate that will sustain our supplies with our current usage? If the answer is "yes" than I probably won't be bothering you again. It would be unsporting to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
That's all.

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