Video: Russian(?) Mig29 shooting down a Georgian drone in Georgia

[Lumpy]

Because it works EVERY time you pull the trigger. It doesn't jam, and the high rate of fire makes for a greater first time hit over a regular cannon. The modern gatlin gun can't be beat by a single barreled weapon system for the amount of steel on target in the shortest time.

Yes it's heavy, and it takes a bit to warm it up, but once it's there, look out.

You'll agree that in modern jet combat half a second is quite a long time? While the M61 is excellent for strafing lightly armoured ground targets, the M61 only fires 18 rounds during the first half second, which is only 4 more than the GSh-30-1. And let's consider what kind of "steel" each gun is putting on target:




The M61 fires the 20x102 mm (second from the left), the GSh-30-1 fires the 30x165 mm (tallest of them all). A single round of 30x165 will most likely destroy or cripple a fighter sized aircraft. This is why the MiG-29 only carries 100-150 rounds of ammo for its gun, while M61 armed planes must carry 500+ rounds.

And you get two GSh-30-1 for the weight of one M61.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/modern_fighter_gun_effectiveness.htm

[Hornet33]

Nice link. Good info one there but it never really discussed reliability. The advantage that the M61 and GAU-8 have is that they are very difficult to jam. If a round doesn't fire it just gets kicked out. The M61 and GAU-8 use linkless ammo so there is one less thing to get in the way. Also the guns are electrically driven, and can be reversed to clear a malfunction should it occur.

The Gsh-30 is a recoil operated weapon. If a round doesn't fire, the gun is useless until the round is cleared from the chamber. Can the gun be cleared in flight? It also uses linked ammo. Links can and do cause malfuntions.

I'm not saying the Gsh-30 is a bad weapon, but I'd rather trade a little bit of increased weight for higher reliablility and higher rate of fire.

[RTR]

Me insane?

No....okay, maybe a little bit

I just have a low tolerance for misinformation wether it's intentional or unintentional. A little research is always a good thing.

Trust, but verify kind of thing.

cheers,
RTR

[Boroda]

Russian gatlings weigh about 70kg (depends on model, two people easily carry them), are gas-operated (don't require external power) and with special muzzle devices reach full rotation speed after the first shot... Technical rate of fire reaches 9000rpm.

Some rapidfire cannons like R-23 used on Tu-22 (and also on some spacecrafts) are also impossible to jam, special cartridge is ejected forward by gas, and IIRC "ignition" is backed up by a force of flame penetrating the side of the cartridge.

Back to the topic: if you look at the Georgian "recording" you see the sun reflecting in the water. It's not Abkhazian Black-Sea coast.

[Chairboy]

Boroda, any thoughts on why Moscow hasn't denied this? 

[Lumpy]

Nice link. Good info one there but it never really discussed reliability. The advantage that the M61 and GAU-8 have is that they are very difficult to jam. If a round doesn't fire it just gets kicked out. The M61 and GAU-8 use linkless ammo so there is one less thing to get in the way. Also the guns are electrically driven, and can be reversed to clear a malfunction should it occur.

The Gsh-30 is a recoil operated weapon. If a round doesn't fire, the gun is useless until the round is cleared from the chamber. Can the gun be cleared in flight? It also uses linked ammo. Links can and do cause malfuntions.

I'm not saying the Gsh-30 is a bad weapon, but I'd rather trade a little bit of increased weight for higher reliablility and higher rate of fire.

All modern fighter guns automatically clears a misfired round. Though in linear guns like the GSh it will interrupt firing, unlike in externally powered revolver or Gatling type guns. You can have two GSh's for the weight of one M61 ... the likelihood of both guns misfiring at the same time is negligible. French fighters typically use two single barrelled 30 mm DEFA guns. The Israeli also prefer using two 30 mm guns in its indigenous designs. In fact only the US still use multi-barrel guns in their fighters.

If you look at the Tony Williams site you will notice that the effectiveness of the M61 is only half of that of the GSh-301, so you'll need two M61's to achieve the same effectiveness as a single GSh-301. Two M61 weigh a whopping four times as much as a GSh-301, and are far more bulky. Space is at a premium in aircraft designs, especially in small fighters like the F-16 and MiG-29.




Here's a small video of a GSh-301 firing: http://airbase.ru/hangar/weapons/gsh-301/img/gsh301.avi

[Boroda]

Boroda, any thoughts on why Moscow hasn't denied this? 

Our Foreign Ministry and Armed Forces denied it.

It's funny: Georgians denied it themselves, for almost 24 hours after Abzkazians showed the second wreck.

Georgian regime is outrageously stupid. Looks like they are busy mostly dividing American money.

[Lumpy]

Boroda, I was chatting with a Russian sergeant the other day and he also seemed to think that Ukraine is a US puppet and that all the problems are some US conspiracy. Care to elaborate on what makes Russians believe this?

[Boroda]

Boroda, I was chatting with a Russian sergeant the other day and he also seemed to think that Ukraine is a US puppet and that all the problems are some US conspiracy. Care to elaborate on what makes Russians believe this?

Maybe 80M US dollars spent on "supporting democracy in Ukraine"? And the way American ambassador opens the Ukrainian president's door.

As for Georgia, they admit that all their government gets their salaries in US DoS. Their army gets American training, they receive used US hardware etc. Do you really think that Georgia can afford that Hermes drones? Look, they are so poor that they had to close trolley-bus lines in their capital, Tbilisi. And before 1990 they were the richest Soviet republic!

[Boroda]

True footage from Georgian drone revealed!

[Lumpy]

Maybe 80M US dollars spent on "supporting democracy in Ukraine"? And the way American ambassador opens the Ukrainian president's door.

As for Georgia, they admit that all their government gets their salaries in US DoS. Their army gets American training, they receive used US hardware etc. Do you really think that Georgia can afford that Hermes drones? Look, they are so poor that they had to close trolley-bus lines in their capital, Tbilisi. And before 1990 they were the richest Soviet republic!

What's wrong with supporting democracy in Ukraine? What's wrong with giving money to people you like and want to support?

Oh, and 80 million isn't a lot of money for a government. Bush spent more than twice that on his election campaign alone.

[Boroda]

What's wrong with supporting democracy in Ukraine? What's wrong with giving money to people you like and want to support?

In Real World it's called "interference into domestic affairs".

Politicians paid by a foreign power usually mind their employer's business, not their own people.

[Lumpy]

In the free world anyone is allowed to "interfere" as much as they like as long as they don't break the law. Giving money to friends is usually not illegal. Not even in Russia.

[Hornet33]

In Real World it's called "interference into domestic affairs".

Politicians paid by a foreign power usually mind their employer's business, not their own people.

It's only interference if the outsider isn't invited. The US was asked by the Ukrainian Government for assistance, so we helped out. Besides the people in Ukraine seem to like Americans. At least it seemed that way to me when I was in Odessa back in 2001, ironicly involved in a NATO combined arms exercise hosted by Ukraine. We were in Poti Georgia before that. Folks there seemed to like us as well.

Oh and don't forget all the money we've tossed at Russia since the fall of the USSR either. Guess that means your boy Putin is on the US payrole as well huh?

[Yeager]

why is Russia picken on Georgia anway?