Flying Talent

[Shane]

There's a difference bewteen "talent" and "skill." 


You'd be surprised how many of us here could do reasonably well if you put us (supervised of course) behind the stick of some prop plane...  it's the niggling little details that skill, not talent, make in the difference surviving piloting a real plane.

[BnZ]

It approachs absurdity and profound dissrespect to apply labels/perjoratives about playing styles in our little game to men who did this for real.

Everybody shot from dead behind with no warning whenever possible, and you will find that probably 80% of kills were scored this way. On the other hand, Richtoffen and Hartman had some white-knuckle dogfights themselves and there is little doubt they were skilled manuevering pilots. Voss's exploits and similar are just what you would expect from a cornered tiger facing long odds. Mainly, some pilots were luckier than others...some scored  and scored without being killed or wounded, some died, some came close enough to feel the Reaper breathing down their neck but pulled it out at the last instant.

Honestly, the primary factor before  in the making of an ace before all the radar, missles, electronics, etc, was probably eyesight, spotting the enemy first being primary. Then gunnery. Ability to withstand Gs in a high-speed turn, probably distant third.

[airspro]

Just read a book about Voss , seems the Brits shoveled him into a shell hole shortly after his death .

Guess it was a busy time at Plum Farm .

[Furball]

It approachs absurdity and profound dissrespect to apply labels/perjoratives about playing styles in our little game to men who did this for real.

Why?

There are clear similarities in flying styles "our little game" and those that fought in real life, how is comparing the two "disrespectful"?  I didn't see any disrespectful comments, just observations on how they flew and using game terminology to make the link between the two.  There tends to be a bias against "Cherrypickers" in game, but in real life that is just a smart way to stay alive.

Voss and Ball would often fly alone after they had completed their briefed patrols, they would deliberately put themselves in situations where they would attack while vastly against the odds.  Have you ever read "Flying Fury" by James McCudden?  Have you ever read Arthur Rhys-Davids combat report of the shooting down of Voss?  That is why i was making the link to the sublime skill in a dogfight.  McCudden had fought Voss before, he said(don't have the exact quote so working on memory): "Met a very clever hun today who escaped by his superior aerobatics.  At one stage i was so close that i could see his face clear enough to pick him out if i saw him with his squadron, i swear the pilot was grinning from ear to ear" while fighting alone against the odds.   When they met again he showed he had the "sixth sense" to realise he was being bounced, fearlessness in attacking a flight of SE5's head on, anticipation to where his targets would be in attacking multiple targets in one pass, superb gunnery (he damaged most of the aircraft attacking him) and great ACM - I don't believe there is a primary factor in the making of a good pilot.  On the other side, it was the discipline and experience of 56 Squadron, and leadership of McCudden which eventually killed Voss, he probably would have survived from a fight with a lesser squadron.

We were just on the point of engaging six Albatros Scouts away to our right, when we saw ahead of us, just above Poelcappelle, an S.E. half spinning down closely pursued by a silvery blue German triplane at very close range. The S.E. certainly looked very unhappy, so we changed our minds about attacking the six V-strutters, and went to the rescue of the unfortunate S.E.
The Hun triplane was practically underneath our formation now, and so down we dived at a colossal speed. I went to the right, Rhys-Davids to the left, and we got behind the triplane together. The German pilot saw us and turned in a most disconcertingly quick manner, not a climbing nor Immelmann turn, but a sort of flat half spin. By now the German triplane was in the middle of our formation, and its handling was wonderful to behold. The pilot seemed to be firing at all of us simultaneously, and although I got behind him a second time, I could hardly stay there for a second. His movements were so quick and uncertain that none of us could hold him in sight at all for any decisive time.

I now got a good opportunity as he was coming towards me nose on, and slightly underneath, and had apparently not seen me. I dropped my nose, got him well in my sight, and pressed both triggers. As soon as I fired up came his nose at me, and I heard clack-clack-clack-clack, as his bullets passed close to me and through my wings. I distinctly noticed the red-yellow flashes from his parallel Spandau guns. As he flashed by me I caught a glimpse of a black head in the triplane with no hat on at all.

By this time a red-nosed Albatros Scout had arrived, and was apparently doing its best to guard the triplane's tail, and it was well handled too. The formation of six Albatros Scouts which we were going to attack at first stayed above us, and were prevented from diving on us by the arrival of a formation of Spads, whose leader apparently appreciated our position, and kept the six Albatroses otherwise engaged.

The triplane was still circling round in the midst of six S.E.'s, who were all firing at it as opportunity offered, and at one time I noted the triplane in the apex of a cone of tracer bullets from at least five machines simultaneously, and each machine had two guns. By now the fighting was very low and the red-nosed Albatros had gone down and out, but the triplane still remained. I had temporarily lost sight of the triplane whilst changing a drum of my Lewis gun, and when I next saw him he was very low, still being engaged by an S.E. marked I, the pilot being Rhys-Davids. I noticed that the triplane's movements were very erratic, and then I saw him go into a fairly steep dive and so I continued to watch, and then saw the triplane hit the ground and disappear into a thousand fragments, for it seemed to me that it literally went to powder.

Strange to say, I was the only pilot who witnessed the triplane crash, for even Rhys-Davids, who finally shot it down, did not see its end.

It was now quite late, so we flew home to the aerodrome, and as long as I live I shall never forget my admiration for that German pilot, who single-handed fought seven of us for ten minutes, and also put some bullets through all of our machines. His flying was wonderful, his courage magnificent, and in my opinion he is the bravest German airman whom it has been my privilege to see fight.

We arrived back at the mess, and at dinner the main topic was the wonderful fight. We all conjectured that the enemy pilot must be one of the enemy's best, and we debated as to whether it was Richthofen or Wolff or Voss. The triplane fell in our lines, and the next morning we had a wire from the Wing saying that the dead pilot was found wearing the Boeleke collar and his name was Werner Voss. He had the "Ordre Pour le Merite."

Rhys-Davids came in for a shower of congratulations, and no one deserved them better, but as the boy himself said to me, "Oh, if I could only have brought him down alive," and his remark was in agreement with my own thoughts."
- - - - (from Flying Fury: Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps)

As you say, luck played a huge part in the lives of the aces - MVR himself could have so easily been killed when he was injured in the head by an alert rear gunner on a two seater which he was attacking.

[Furball]

<edit: double post>

[Jackal1]

 to land

I`ve heard of this theory.

[Masherbrum]

yes, he was.....as was eric hartman.....richtoffen died though when he broke his own rule, and became too focused on his prey......

<<S>>

Who was "Eric Hartman"?   Never heard of him and don't see him in the Lists of Aces.

[beddog]

There's a difference bewteen "talent" and "skill." 


You'd be surprised how many of us here could do reasonably well if you put us (supervised of course) behind the stick of some prop plane... 

Yes I would be surprised....      and I would be sure to bring the puke bags with me.  A video game can only touch on what real flying is like but I enjoy playing and trying to match/compare the differences every time I'm on.  One thing I can tell ya is this....  If you ever start flying lessons forget all you "learned" in this game as it will get ya killed real quick.

[BnZ]

Furball: Well, I was thinking about Richtoffen's fight against Lando Hawker...clearly neither the Red Baron nor Hartmann got where they did without skill at handling their airplanes...unlike some "cherrypickers" in this game.

I also honestly think that if you want to compare RL air combat in the prop-driven era to an aspect of our game, it should be the tank-driving, not the flying! Over and over in accounts of real air combat, it becomes apparent how the key to victory was seeing first and making a deadly shot first.

BTW, I myself am not big on actual flying, even though airplanes fascinate me as technical objects. Not fear in the white-knuckle, I'm-gonna-puke sense, just a sense that A. If everything goes as normal, I'm going to be bored, B. If everything does NOT go as normal, I'm going to be wishing for boredom. I suppose that whereas my Dad (the pilot in the family) feels a thrill when lift exceeds weight, I feel relief that someone has not canceled the laws of physics just to screw me over. I understand Werner Molders had similiar feelings, but overcame it and became a noted ace because of his strong hunter's instinct.

[CAP1]

Who was "Eric Hartman"?   Never heard of him and don't see him in the Lists of Aces.

WW11.....352 kills, highest scoring ace of all time............german
<<S>>

[CAP1]

Who was "Eric Hartman"?   Never heard of him and don't see him in the Lists of Aces.

check this link.....
http://www.acepilots.com/misc_hartmann.html

<<S>>

[uptown]

50% of this game is the computer you have. This is a game....G forces and how well you can deal with that makes a real world fighter pilot.

[Zwerg]

check this link.....
http://www.acepilots.com/misc_hartmann.html

<<S>>

I see you know the internet.
I have another question.
Can you tell me what is a "karaya"? 

[Lusche]

Can you tell me what is a "karaya"? 

A denture adhesive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaya_gum 

[Zwerg]

A denture adhesive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaya_gum

Klugscheisser!