Author Topic: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5  (Read 3787 times)

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2008, 12:36:26 AM »
bomb load put of the He 177

(Image removed from quote.)




Wasn't in one of the early raids that 13 He177s were tasked with a mission and only 4 made it to the target area and only 1 dropped its bombs? All the other had to abort due to mechanical troubles.

Jan 21/22
He177 1/KG40 2x2500 kg bombs > 5000kg

Feb24/25
He 177 2/KG100 4x1000kg HE > 4000kg

April18/19
He177 3/KG100 12x 250kg HE > 3000kg

None of the bomb loads stated in your second post are listed in your first post. I suggest the data in your first post is incomplete.
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Offline Furball

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2008, 03:00:58 AM »
These are the contemporaries of the B-17:

The first He 177 had it's maiden flight in November 39, more than four years after the B-17.


Not necessarily... he is comparing it to the B-17G which was vastly different to the 30's B-17's. When was the G introduced? Mid 1943?

The early B-17's were not very effective warplanes at all, but Boeing had the luxury of time, distance, experiences of the RAF and later the USAAF to develop the aircraft into a great bomber.  It took 8 years or so from introduction to create the ultimate B-17G model.

This is more like the contemporary of the aircraft which you posted...

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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2008, 03:31:36 AM »
Yup. Like I said before I chose the B-17G because it is a bomber that everyone knows was capable, and it is very close to the He 177A-5 in size and weight. Whether one or the other was better or worse or newer or older is all irrelevant.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2008, 05:33:03 AM »
Jeez gScholtz if you are going to compare the initial deployment of the B-29 then at least compare it to the early He177s.

Oh yes Huck, half of the uber twins, you are quoting. Barbi being the other half.

Quote
The maintenance facilities required to operate He-177 were still to come, prior this move only one He-177 squad operated from Chateaudun. In plus all the He-177 that 2. and 3./KG100 had were new builds, not yet flown in combat, so the manufacturing defects were yet to be discovered.

What no factory test flights were done prior to delivery? :rolleyes: No problems showed up in the delivery flights? :rolleyes: How did the 1 squad operate from Chateaudun without maintenance facilities?

Quote
None of the bomb loads stated in your second post are listed in your first post. I suggest the data in your first post is incomplete.

Quite possible it is incomplete but that is all I have. Didn't mean to give the impression those were the only loads. As to the bomb load, is not the top diagram showing 12 x 250kg bombs ((4 x 250) x 3)?

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2008, 06:35:55 AM »
Jeez gScholtz if you are going to compare the initial deployment of the B-29 then at least compare it to the early He177s.

Huh?  :huh    I don't remember ever making such a comparison.


Oh yes Huck, half of the uber twins, you are quoting. Barbi being the other half.

I like him already! ;)    ber is good!


Quite possible it is incomplete but that is all I have. Didn't mean to give the impression those were the only loads. As to the bomb load, is not the top diagram showing 12 x 250kg bombs ((4 x 250) x 3)?

Yes you're right. I must be getting old or blind. *sigh*
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2008, 06:54:19 AM »
Huh?  :huh    I don't remember ever making such a comparison.

You did indirectly with the quote by Huckie.

Don't get too excited about the uber. It is a term used over at Ubi and is not a compliment for Huck and Kurfurst, aka Barbi, the twins.

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2008, 07:01:22 AM »
Yes, annoying isn't it? When some people just don't accept the dogma?  :lol
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Karnak

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2008, 10:06:11 AM »
It was a failure because it was an expensive program that produced nothing usable until after Germany no longer had the time or spare production capacity to produce a fleet of heavy bombers.  It should not take four or five years, with wartime experience, to produce a usable warplane.  The B-17 was only a little older, true, but in terms of wartime experience the Americans were far behind the Germans, yet the 1942 E and F models were entirely useable.  The British Halifax was usable out the gate and the Manchester failed (for the same basic reason as the He177s) until Avro and Rolls-Royce wisely stopped trying to make the overly complex Vultures work and just went with four Merlins to produce the immediately usable Lancaster.  Had Heinkel switched to a basic four engine He277 early on it would have been a great bomber, no doubt, but they persisted with trying to force a very difficult engine arrangement to work until it was too late for the resulting aircraft to be significantly useful.

The Do217 and Ju188 programs were much more successful in producing a usable bomber in a useful timeframe and for a reasonable cost.


I seem to recall it was a customer requirement that kept the He177 saddled with those engines.  If so, one can hardly blame Hienkel for the failure.  The Mitsubishi G4M 'Betty' suffered a similar fate, the customer insisted on two engines only when the manufacturer kept telling them they really needed four to get a usable warplane with the range being demanded.  As it is, Mitsubishi had to sacrifice all protection in order to get the range requested on a twin engined aircraft.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2008, 10:45:40 AM »
Not necessarily... he is comparing it to the B-17G which was vastly different to the 30's B-17's. When was the G introduced? Mid 1943?

The early B-17's were not very effective warplanes at all, but Boeing had the luxury of time, distance, experiences of the RAF and later the USAAF to develop the aircraft into a great bomber.  It took 8 years or so from introduction to create the ultimate B-17G model.

This is more like the contemporary of the aircraft which you posted...

The B-17 was combat ready with the E model, which was in service before Pearl Harbor. The F was an updated E and the G was an updated F with the addition of the nose turret. E models were the main variant in service with the 8th AF when the daylight bombing campaign began in August of 1942.

As to the He 177A-5; it didn't begin manufacture until December of 1943. I don't see any evidence that the A-5 saw combat service before February of 1944. B-29s were in squadron service by March of 1944. That makes the He 177A-5 very much a contemporary of the B-29A.

If you gents want to compare apples to oranges, lets look at the historical impact of each type. There's no question that the B-17 was a significant combatant. However, if the He 177 had never been built, it would not have been missed. It was decidedly unimportant to the outcome of the war, almost certainly a waste of resources as its original mission had evaporated before the excellent later versions were available in any numbers.

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Offline moot

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2008, 10:59:43 AM »
That's true, but this sort of thread is after what would provide good combat performance in AH.
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2008, 01:54:38 PM »
That's true, but this sort of thread is after what would provide good combat performance in AH.
Moot that is NOT what the author of this thread is after.

Quote
Ive desided to compare the He-117A-5 with its most prolific and celebrated allied counterpart, the B-17G.

The 17 would not be it's counterpart due to design/production/service dates. This is just another thinly veiled German=133t, American= teh suck thread.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 02:06:29 PM by Bronk »
See Rule #4

Offline moot

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2008, 02:09:30 PM »
What's he after then?  It looks like he's after plugging holes in the AH planeset.  Depending on whether you measure potential new planes' value on if they fit in the MA's performance range and nationality representation, or in the other arena's historicality (so to speak), you might say the He177 is sorely needed or dismissable...

I don't know about Kraut 1337/US sux0r, I do know the german planeset has nothing better than the very crappy Ju88 at the moment :)
TBH I think the JP planeset needs the planes Urchin suggested in the other thread, and after that we need a few italian planes.  After that, we've got an even planeset again, I think.  Maybe enough to add that french flying coffin :lol
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 02:12:24 PM by moot »
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2008, 02:14:21 PM »
See Rule #4

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2008, 03:06:44 PM »
The B-17 could carry 17,417 lb using external racks.
If this is true...then when the perked ord. system comes out, maybe we can get ext. racks of bombs on the 17 that would come out of the Bomber perk category?
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Offline AquaShrimp

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Re: Heavy bombers: B-17G vs. He 177A-5
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2008, 04:35:13 PM »
Performance X Reliability= Effectiveness

That being said, the B-17G was far more effective than the He177.